tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post5571021458399687993..comments2024-02-11T01:14:21.904-08:00Comments on SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: Realistic Firearms TrainingFerFALhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07578136334334588454noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-44033621050390338842011-04-15T16:25:14.759-07:002011-04-15T16:25:14.759-07:00@Don
The caliber debate will rage until the end o...@Don<br /><br />The caliber debate will rage until the end of time. Your math is solid, but your assumptions are slanting your own argument in favor of the .45 (3x9mm = 1x.45 is not a realistic assessment of how gunfights work out).<br /><br />I've seen guys that had been shot (fatally even) with a .45 multiple times fight on for much longer than you'd think is possible, and I've seen guys go down with one 9mm to the torso. <br /><br />You never know what the fight will be, and assuming different is a good way to lose. <br /><br />Personally, I'd much rather have the option of having 45 rounds versus 21-27 (depending on mag capacity) if needed.<br /><br />And yeah if you look at the uniform crime report, the incidence of multiple attackers is sharply increasing here in the US.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-48646793730299237552011-04-09T12:02:54.210-07:002011-04-09T12:02:54.210-07:00Unless our situation in the US is dramatically alt...Unless our situation in the US is dramatically altered, the chances of us ever being in a "gunfight" are much lower than the chances of us running into a mugger on a dark street or parking lot.<br /><br />One reason that so few shots hit the mark is that few shots are ever intended to hit the mark, but are instead fired in the general direction of an enemy as suppression fire. <br /><br />Of all the people I know who have ever had to use a gun for personal protection outside of the home the distances are just a few feet and the concept of cover/concealment is non-existant. I have never even heard of anybody anywhere near me getting into a gunfight where more than a few shots were exchanged. <br /><br />At least from everything I have seen and heard, shootings are very common but gunfights are exceedingly rare. The only gunfights I have heard about are in or around a house. <br /><br />Do criminals in other places really stick around and try to shoot it out just to rob you?Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12682475060718774717noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-32667260129515809012011-04-08T10:21:13.146-07:002011-04-08T10:21:13.146-07:00Don, you can't win a gunfight with math. I can...Don, you can't win a gunfight with math. I can understand where you're coming from, I'm a very technical and analytical person too. The problem is that historically and factually speaking, gunfights are a mess in simple terms. Very few bullets fired ever find their mark. I've read many different reports but a good average seems to be around 15-20%. I've read of many occurrences where an officer was shot in the hand or arm, making it even more difficult to accurately shoot back. I'm a reasonable person, no superhero, so I don't expect to improve significantly in accuracy during a gunfight compared to law enforcement. If I should then expect no more than 1 in 5 bullets to hit my target, I want as much capacity as I can reasonably carry in a proven caliber.Sean Cnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-67399385636633166672011-04-07T20:19:12.127-07:002011-04-07T20:19:12.127-07:001) I need to clarify an earlier comment.
A single...1) I need to clarify an earlier comment.<br /><br />A single stack 45 ACP mag holding seven 45 rounds gives a holding space of 7* 45 = 3.15 inches. That space will only hold 8 (NOT 12) rounds of 40 S&W or 357 Sig rounds. (3.14 div by .40).<br /><br />The Glocks hold more because they have oversized, wide grips (1.5 in) and double stack their rounds. A Glock 21 45 ACP holds 13 rounds, not 7 or 8.<br /><br />Whether the oversized, wide grip is desirable depends in part on the size of your hand -- you may get better accuracy with the single grip Colt 45 and it is thinner for concealment.<br /><br />There is no magic -- for a given space you have X amount of lead and Y amount of powder. 15 rds give more flexibility than 8 but a contrary argument is that it is best to throw out more lead per shot with better accuracy because you may not get to shoot rds 10-15.Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-1183128359765733552011-04-07T17:47:16.826-07:002011-04-07T17:47:16.826-07:00"This year is the 100th anniversery of the 19..."This year is the 100th anniversery of the 1911 45ACP-- and a reminder that if you want to stop a cavalry charge, you need to shoot those horses with big bullets."<br /><br />True, but I think it was Moro Tribesmen in the Philipine insurrection that got the generals' attention by refusing to fall after being shot 6 times with the .38 special. We were losing too many valuable officers, you know.<br /><br />The US Army began a program that culminated with the greatest pistol ever made. That after 100 years this point is still being argued is a tribute to John Browning's design and the bullet created to fire in it.<br /><br />I see you are an aficionado of the 1911. So am I. I have 3 of them, my favorite being the Kimber Ultra CDP-11, but my Colt Combat Commander and Government models aren't too shabby.<br /><br />templar knightAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-50688696212178943342011-04-07T11:41:03.602-07:002011-04-07T11:41:03.602-07:001) I judge cartridge power by momentum --bullet we...1) I judge cartridge power by momentum --bullet weight<br /> times velocity -- since that when divided by cross sectional area (bullet diameter squared) gives you the depth of penetration. <br />(Assuming the bullet doesn't tumble --something that limits<br />the penetration of spitzer rifle<br />rounds.) <br /><br />2) A 124 gr 9mm+P at 1150 fps gives you a momentum of 142,600. <br />A 124 357 Sig at 1350 gives you 167400. <br /><br />In contrast, the basic 230 gr 45 ACP at 830 pfs gives you<br />190900. <br /><br />3) Plus the Sig is a hot load. A similar hot +P 45 ACP --230 gr at 936 pfs -- gives you 215280.<br /> <br />A 45 ACP wildcat --necked down in the manner of the 357 Sig to 40 caliber -- will give the penetration of the 357 sig but with a 40 caliber wound channel vice 357.<br /><br />4) A 16 rd 357 mag requires an oversized grip. Given that the<br />Sig is a necked down 40 S&W, a 12 round mag would be a more <br />meaningful comparison to the 8 round 45. <br /><br />And 10 round 45 ACP mags are available -- probably not something you want to carry<br />in the gun itself but a reasonable option for reloads if people want.<br /><br />5) This year is the 100th anniversity of the 1911 45 ACP -- and a reminder that if you want to stop a cavalry charge, you need to <br />shoot those horses with big bullets. :)))Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-83478818174156427962011-04-06T07:18:39.852-07:002011-04-06T07:18:39.852-07:00Hi Don;
1) for training on TEA we do 3 mags with 7...Hi Don;<br />1) for training on TEA we do 3 mags with 7 rounds each per stage. That way you practice reloading even if your mag has 15 round capacity.<br />More ammo is always better, there's a million reasons why you may end up needing more ammo: severla attackers, more than one round needed per bad guy, prior suppresive shooting, etc.<br />2)It's not that simple. Each 357 SIG round packs more power than 45 ACP, but it fits more ammo than 45 ACP pistols. Since placement is more important than marginal caliber differences, more shots (with training) means greater chances of hitting where it counts.<br />3)It depends, this isn't math, if you put a round thorugh a persons heart, nervous system, brain or mayor blood vessels it matter little if its 9mm or 45 ACP, and again, with good JHP 9mm will do as good as 45 ACP. Of course pacement is the key.<br />Its not 3x9mm=1x45 ACP.<br />4)Against pros, your odds aren't good, but take for example Mr. Rico, Mayor of the city of San Miguel, he's fend of multiple armed attackers 4 or 5, maybe more, several times. Got wounded last time but he still survived, guy laughed while on the strecher saying he'd kill the MF if they came after him again. <br />I also remember an icident where a 18 year old boy with his dads 40S&W fought several corrupt cops trying to break into his house, killing 3 or 4 of them. It really depends and its a matter of training, luck, rigt tool for the job and determination.<br /><br />FerFALFerFALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07578136334334588454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-2307532489615975832011-04-05T20:46:09.193-07:002011-04-05T20:46:09.193-07:00Or does body armor again change the situation -- i...Or does body armor again change the situation -- i.e, you may be hit before getting off more than 8 rounds but you will be wearing body armor and hence will have time for several more shots before your attackers realize that and adapt??Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-28876378665328210222011-04-05T20:40:03.133-07:002011-04-05T20:40:03.133-07:001) One question I have --from considering the earl...1) One question I have --from considering the earlier 45 vs 9mm thread -- is this: what are the circumstances/training scenarios where one would need (or be able to fire) more than 8 rounds? <br /><br />2) There is no magic -- You have a limited space in the grip , hence a fixed amount of powder/lead. You can stuff in 8 45 rounds or 15 9mm (the latter at the expense of fatter grips which affect accuracy if you have smaller hands.)<br /><br />3) It takes three 9mm rounds to make the same wound channel volume as two 45 rounds. Hence you can take out 4 opponents with a 45 double tap and 5 with the 9mm. I would give the 45 a little more points because I think 9mm wounds are small enough to be partially self-closing --like sticking an icepick in an inflated automobile tire. But the 9mm gives you more flexibility. So we are almost in a philosophical debate.<br /><br />4) But if you are fighting armed opponents at close range, what are the odds of shooting more than 4 attackers before being hit yourself? <br /><br />It seems to me that the larger mag of the 9mm is of value mostly in dealing with failures to stop due to attackers having body armor-- e.g., having to shoot for the head as in the Mozambique drill. But won't you be hit by the time you make that discovery?Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.com