tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post7361920052452835755..comments2024-02-11T01:14:21.904-08:00Comments on SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: First gun: Shotgun or Handgun?FerFALhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07578136334334588454noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-23966377715565726472011-02-23T18:48:49.071-08:002011-02-23T18:48:49.071-08:00Ok,a shotgun is much much less expensive 200 used ...Ok,a shotgun is much much less expensive 200 used vs 450 or 500 used for a glock. Handun is better because you can take it with you but shotgun is better for the home. All handguns are underpowered period.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-34707994761917687212010-03-15T02:25:20.926-07:002010-03-15T02:25:20.926-07:00When you were 7 you no doubt saw your father fire ...When you were 7 you no doubt saw your father fire his shotgun hundreds of times. That's called mimicry and you were so good at such a young age because you copied him.<br /><br />People go off and buy a shotgun or worse own a 'family shotgun' and have no idea how to fire it, holding it up to your shoulder to fire is something that you must learn.<br /><br />But in anycase that's not the main issue. Because a handgun can be hidden and carried on ones person is the main reason it should be your first gun. This takes precedence over the superior stopping power a shogun has for the trained person in close quarters.<br /><br />Coming in and going out of your house are the most likely times you will be assaulted and you can't walk around with your shotgun when doing this. And operating one in ones vehicle is unwieldy if not impossible.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-53619593545788519322009-11-03T22:30:43.211-08:002009-11-03T22:30:43.211-08:00Anonymous said:
"Highly irresponsible to reco...Anonymous said:<br />"Highly irresponsible to recommend such a weapon to someone with zero gun experience or knowledge."<br /><br />I began shooting squirrel at 7 years old using a 12ga. Grandma cooked. It came natural to me. No one taught me to shoot. Shooting a handgun was a different story and I still doubt my ability. Most do better with a should fired weapon than a handgun.<br /><br />When the time comes, most will blast away and hit nothing. We can only imagine until we have practical experience. I know some my limitations, and the handgun is one of them.<br /><br />A?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-84640315347748122242009-11-03T08:11:41.280-08:002009-11-03T08:11:41.280-08:00I like that scalpel/sledgehammer metaphor but even...I like that scalpel/sledgehammer metaphor but even so, give someone with no training or experience, a pistol or a shotgun and both are just as useless/useful. In very tight quarters like in a house with doorways and such, a shotgun stands more chance of being grabbed than a pistol. The pistol also has a much higher hit rate due to the number of bullets and firing rate it has. The question is, which weapon has the higher probability of being effective as first weapon?<br /><br />The handgun of course. Pointing the gun at someone which is instinctual and pressing the trigger means you stand a high chance of hitting something in close quarters. The shotgun in contrast NEEDS to be aimed or one essentially is shooting a one shot pistol from the hip. Does anyone have any experience shooting a shotgun from the hip and hitting something? Compound this with adrenalin, moving targets and the shotgun no doubt stands either the same 20% chance of hitting something that a pistol has, but more likely less and with a super slow rate of fire.<br /><br />Compound this with lack of accessibility to training and its a terrible first weapon. (Even movies offer a level of 'training' for a handgun in contrast) Really only a one shot 'boom stick', it might scare off some folks but if they shoot back or there is more than one and they aren't scared off, then your screwed. Highly irresponsible to recommend such a weapon to someone with zero gun experience or knowledge. An automatic shotgun is better but still inferior in my opinion to a pistol/sub carbine/assault rifle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-82126515841058692082009-11-02T23:01:18.194-08:002009-11-02T23:01:18.194-08:00Another good article on which gun to choose, Selec...Another good article on which gun to choose, Selecting Your Optimal Armory:<br /><br />"...shooting is rocket science! You’re better off deciding on the rocket before building the launching pad. Likewise, choose the bullet first and the gun that shoots it second. The coolest rifle is just extra weight if the ammo doesn’t do the job, costs so much you won’t practice or isn’t available."<br /><br />http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/gillespie6.1.1.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-25496705155895902802009-11-02T10:02:12.346-08:002009-11-02T10:02:12.346-08:00One Police Officer I know hit a 230lbs. male 6 tim...One Police Officer I know hit a 230lbs. male 6 times in the chest, taking part of the heart and the man still was able to grab a baseball bat from behind the door. As vets have discribed, some will go down right now, and some will not. They could have time to shoot back. <br /><br /> Although gory and distrubing, there no better documentation than a photo. It is also what we will face emotionally after the fact, and motovates myself to avoid the fight. Here's a link to photo of a head shot by shotgun. It is nasty. Imagine what this can do to another part of the body. The shotgun is the best immediate fight stopper available. <br /><br /> <br />http://www.bestgore.com/murder/massive-shotgun-wound-extremely-gory-head-explosion-picture/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-9388261242515392252009-11-02T03:09:45.866-08:002009-11-02T03:09:45.866-08:00FerFal: "Shotguns would be perfect for guard...FerFal: "Shotguns would be perfect for guards that dont have much training an are in residential area, the limited range in that case is a great security measure."<br /><br />Can't argue with your recommended Glock/AK combo for those who will train. Most will not. We often get reports of a surprising amount of shots fired and few hits. IMVHO (In My Very Humble Opinion), those who will not train are likely only going to get one chance to shoot and it will likely be within 35 yards or much less. It is easier to point a long barrel and a single hit anywhere with the 12ga will do the most to stop the aggressor, whereas better shot placement and multiple hits with a handgun may not stop the aggressor fast enough (stopping power). Those who will not train, and that is most folks, are likely best off defending the home with a sledge hammer than a scalpel. The phrase from an expert I like to keep in mind, "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast." Use #4 buck or heavier. <br /><br />BTW, 7.62x39 and 5.56 FMJ are a lousy stoppers. Use soft point ammunition for the real thing or the 8M3 bullet such as found on Wolf Military Classic HP as a second choice and only this hollow point bullet. The 8M3 fragments after 3" of penetration and the remainder expands and continues to penetrate about 14". Try it on a gallon jug of water for surprising results. Any soft point is better than 8M3, yet it is far better than FMJ.<br /><br /> I know of combat vets who believe FMJ's ability to punch through light concealment is necessary, but most of us won't be in the jungle. Some Vet's would choose the shotgun over a rifle as ranges are typically 50 yards and less. If I could have only one gun, it would be a .45 semi auto as it is portable, yet I can't recommend it to all and for every situation. If I could not carry outside the home, a Remington 870 with 000 buck or a second choice, a Winchester Model 94 in .30-30 would be lowest cost and most effective as well. <br />?A-nony-mousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-26052266581990055742009-10-31T11:51:46.827-07:002009-10-31T11:51:46.827-07:00Unfortunately, too many times, at least in the USA...Unfortunately, too many times, at least in the USA, if you call the cops you're the one who gets shot by them, it happens often enough to be a concern.<br /><br />And, for examples of corrupt cops in the USA, similar to what Ferfal mentions, here is an article highlighting a few, shakedowns and traffic stops that seem more like robbery and the like:<br /><br />http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2009/10/end-occupation-mission-for-oath-keepers.html<br /><br />A lot of what Ferfal says is backed up when one breezes through this list of newspaper reports of examples of guns used in home defense throughout the USA:<br /><br />http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/2009_04_01_archive.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-20564853531897848592009-10-31T07:12:04.231-07:002009-10-31T07:12:04.231-07:00If "not enough ammo" is the problem, the...If "not enough ammo" is the problem, there are semi-auto shotguns with magazines like Saiga-12 (-20 and -410). At least for Saiga-12, they sell 5 round magazines all the way up to 20 round drums.DannyHSDadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08672690981484402398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-15464954816042472132009-10-31T05:46:41.989-07:002009-10-31T05:46:41.989-07:00Thanks for all that you do, FerFAL! Great blog you...Thanks for all that you do, FerFAL! Great blog you have here! I am going to get your book as well.<br /><br />The first thing I brought home from the gunstore was a 12Ga. Mossberg Maverick pump shotgun. I had to fill out paperwork with the county to bring my Glock G23 home. After those two purchases, I waited a little while then bought a DPMS M4, .223. I added an NCStar Red/Green retical sight to the M4. I also added a Colt M4, but in 22Lr. It can get expensive taking the kids to the range with the DPMS, and the 22LR is just a nice addition to my small arsenal.BulgarWheatnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-9367231148551543842009-10-31T05:35:53.043-07:002009-10-31T05:35:53.043-07:00Excellent comments guys, thanks.
About cops, (loca...Excellent comments guys, thanks.<br />About cops, (local cops, no offence inteded to tohse of you guys living in other countires and doing the right job) here they make you go inside along with them anyway, you might as well be armed and ready to shoot. I one occasion when the alarm went of in my wife's factory, they made us go ahead so as to turn off the alarm, switch on the light. Tell them thanks but no thanks, and that they can for in first themselves. Sometiems evne after that they wotn do it with whatever excuse, so the cops are there with you but aren't of much use in those particular sitaution. Again, I'm tlaking aobut Argentine cops (and those couple situations I had with some of them) , no one else.<br /><br />Shotguns would be perfect for guards that dont have much training an are in residential area, the limited range in that case is a great security measure.<br /><br />FerFALFerFALhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07578136334334588454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-52400684351179503612009-10-31T05:32:01.306-07:002009-10-31T05:32:01.306-07:00Nice post on Handgun............Nice post on Handgun............Water Filtershttp://www.iceandwine.com/product-list.php?cid=6noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-56364286409906741362009-10-30T23:22:39.948-07:002009-10-30T23:22:39.948-07:00If or when SHTF, I'll bet in many areas it wil...If or when SHTF, I'll bet in many areas it will be perfectly acceptable to carry a shotgun to, and even through, the grocery store... probably only in small rural towns though. It's not like millions of people don't already walk around carrying shotguns now while hunting in the woods or along the roadsides or to certain trading posts. City slickers would probably still freak at the sight of one, so I doubt this would happen in any larger city. <br /><br />Here is a pretty good article talking up the 20 gauge shotgun for smaller framed guys and for women who cannot handle a heavy kick:<br /><br />"My little girls grew up discovering that they could shoot the 20-gauge a lot better than they could shoot the 12. My current consort is a petite female who loves to shoot her 20-gauge semiautomatic shotgun and hates to shoot any of my 12-gauges. Whether we're going to the hunting field together or defending a household together, which would be the best choice for them to have available? Duh...let me think.<br /><br />...For the person who wants only one all-around shotgun, I would respectfully suggest a gas-operated semiautomatic 20-gauge."<br /><br />http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob120.html<br /><br />Massad Ayoob, he's got a pretty good reputation too I hear.<br /><br />I found this other article that had other choices and was about food prep too, it doesn't seem too outlandish after reading Ferfal's accounts:<br /><br />http://www.survivalblog.com/2009/09/preparing_for_uncertain_timesa.html<br /><br />"You call the police and wait for them to clear the house."?<br />I think another thing Ferfal's observations shows is that waiting for the cops is a bad plan after an economic crash,... heck even today it's not usually a good idea. What's the joke(s) about how long it takes the cops to respond when their main office is only blocks away? Oh, maybe that's not a joke?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-64929410487188372422009-10-30T21:47:28.133-07:002009-10-30T21:47:28.133-07:00So true. A handgun is FAR better than a shotgun f...So true. A handgun is FAR better than a shotgun for home defense and all around defense.<br /><br />You can carry a handgun anywhere. In the house it is easier to operate, more shots, one hand shooting, easier for less experienced, lighter, a LOT faster to reload, etc...<br /><br />You still have to be a good shot with a shotgun, just like a handgun.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-27243451335338955502009-10-30T21:39:49.782-07:002009-10-30T21:39:49.782-07:00A pump shotgun in the hands of someone who trains ...A pump shotgun in the hands of someone who trains regularly can be racked as quickly as a semi-auto. I learned this from my years as a gun dealer, and my regular range exercises. It is not a slow, cumbersome weapon in the right hands. It does have great stopping power with the right loads, and it IS more safe towards friendlies when used in an urban environment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-91349042644135399142009-10-30T19:19:03.242-07:002009-10-30T19:19:03.242-07:00The hardest question to answer, "What if...&q...The hardest question to answer, "What if..." <br /><br />It's clear, there is no one perfect self defense gun that's suitable for everyone in every situation that everyone can agree on. Luckily we can choose, and perhaps some of us will survive to tell the tale.<br /><br />Unlike so many people in places like the UK:<br /><br />"More evidence that gun control kills. From the Mail Online:<br />The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent."<br /><br />http://karendecoster.com/no-guns-more-crime.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-2180437532395756192009-10-30T19:14:05.865-07:002009-10-30T19:14:05.865-07:00You're all getting into the shotgun vs. rifle ...You're all getting into the shotgun vs. rifle vs. handgun for home defense argument. <br /><br />But that's not the question. The question is about what your first gun should be - a shotgun or handgun. And if you ever have to leave your house for any reason in todays society, the obvious answer is a handgun - 'cause toting a shotgun into the grocery store will just get you shot, arrested, or both.Jacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-68549071823014610862009-10-30T19:01:56.078-07:002009-10-30T19:01:56.078-07:001) The issues re the Shotgun seem to arise because...1) The issues re the Shotgun seem to arise because of different views re tactics.<br /><br />2) I think it is a very bad idea to wander around a house with a loaded shotgun peeping around corners. Cops don't like that job even when there are several of them covering each other. <br /><br />You run a high risk of being shot in the head by a crook who is hiding and tracking you from the noise you make in moving.<br /><br />3) Rather, I think a house has to be fortified and alarmed sufficiently well that you and family have time to retreat to a strong room accessible only down a long choked corridor (hallway, stairs, etc.) You call the police and wait for them to clear the house. <br /><br />In the meantime, you hide behind cover and hit anyone who tries to come down the hallway or up the stairs or through the barred door to the strong room. You need to have the cover set up in advance (heavy bookcase, kevlar mat,etc.<br /><br />I think only double ought buckshot should be used -- birdshot often doesn't penetrate very far and merely leaves a shallow, surface wound which doesn't stop. <br /><br />Since you are setting up the target zone in advance, you should be able to arrange it so that stray shots won't endanger your neighbors.<br /><br />Again, the nine pellets in a double ought buckshot round each have roughly the mass and velocity of a 9mm bullet. If nine of those in the groin won't stop, then why are people carrying handguns?<br /><br />A Remington 870 with extended magazine can hold 8 rounds -- and you can reload between shots.<br />(Something that you can't do with magazine guns.) Unless you are attacked by a coven of vampires, I think that should be enough gun for home defense.Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-86088206585604617532009-10-30T17:14:07.254-07:002009-10-30T17:14:07.254-07:00On over penetration. Let's be practical. Nobod...On over penetration. Let's be practical. Nobody knows what a lead round is going to do when it is leaves a barrel going at Mach 1+. That includes shotguns. So instead of just firing willy-nilly and thinking that the walls are going to stop things, you're going to have to take into consideration, always, what is on the other side of the shot just as you do at the range. Remember that rule "be sure of your target and backstop before pulling the trigger"? If you know your kid is on the other side of the wall then you shouldn't be taking the shot no matter what you have in the gun because it may go through. You just have to aim higher, aim lower, or adjust your position to make sure it doesn't go near that direction. <br /><br />00 Buck can penetrate walls just as much as a rifle or pistol slug can. For short range I'll take the pistol. I'll also take a rifle. A rifle slug hitting you at 2000-3000fps is going to cause a big boo-boo. There is no way around it. It's a level of violence that is going to be hard to just shrug off, especially if it's a .30 caliber sized projectile. Heck, I'd take 30 rounds of .223 in an AR over 8 rounds in a shotgun. Having more ammo in a fire fight can be a deciding factor. Frankly, I'd rather have 13 rounds in my Glock with a spare magazine than a shotgun with side saddle. That would be 26 rounds of .45 vs. 12 or so of 12 gauge. More than twice the number of shots.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-41434251875133860272009-10-30T16:35:09.527-07:002009-10-30T16:35:09.527-07:00A shotgun is not a guaranteed 'one shot stop&#...A shotgun is not a guaranteed 'one shot stop' that is action movie talk. What if the baddie needs two or three shots to go down? What if theres more than one of them? With the slow rate of fire of a shotgun in high stress situations and low maneuverability get ready to be overrun.<br /><br />Penetration issues are HIGHLY overrated, you already have only a 20 percent chance of hitting a baddie what chance do you stand in hitting a neighbor?. Use of bird shot to ameliorate these issue reduces the penetration and stopping power of the shotgun rounds. <br /><br />Also a shotgun needs TWO hands to operate and aim properly. what if you need to call the police or restrain a baddie or open a door or use a flashlight or hold a child's hand?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-27681828856873319012009-10-30T15:52:24.867-07:002009-10-30T15:52:24.867-07:00First gun:
Not just handgun, but specifically a do...First gun:<br />Not just handgun, but specifically a double-action revolver. Semi-auto pistols are for people who like guns and will practice and study and get it right. For your lady who may have to pick it up but you could never get her to take seriously the training, she would probably not effectively use the pistol, but she would have a chance to fight with the revolver. Point and shoot. You don't have to teach somebody how to shoot a revolver. Sure, you'll have to teach them not to slam it closed but that's minor compared to being able to pick it up and use it with insufficient training or motivation. And .357 Mag in the US since you can use .38 Special and can cover just about any task with that range of power levels in a gun anybody can use.Idahosernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-57360819224463098962009-10-30T13:03:13.623-07:002009-10-30T13:03:13.623-07:00I mentioned the merits of shotgun use for home def...I mentioned the merits of shotgun use for home defense because they will penetrate walls less than rifle or hand gun rounds. Of course shotgun rounds will penetrate sheetrock to some degree. If I threw a "D" cell battery at a wall, it would probably penetrate 2 layers of sheetrock, and hurt someone in the next room. But the effective lethal range of shot shells is far less than bullets, therefore overpenetration is reduced.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-56152511661888574532009-10-30T10:14:25.367-07:002009-10-30T10:14:25.367-07:00PS A 30 caliber FMJ rifle round may pass through a...PS A 30 caliber FMJ rifle round may pass through an attacker's body with very little IMMEDIATE stopping power<br />if it does not hit the heart or brain. And a rifle hollow point may not expand if it is clogged with leather or cloth from the attacker's clothing.<br /><br />The primary point is that fighting off home invaders is short range fighting and you need something that stops an attacker IMMEDIATELY and with 100 percent reliability.Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-35928716891045301672009-10-30T10:08:50.981-07:002009-10-30T10:08:50.981-07:00A combat vet I knew decided to get a home gun a d...A combat vet I knew decided to get a home gun a decade ago-- in case things turned to crap because of the Y2K computer bug.<br /><br />He thought the US Army would suppress any rioting or large scale social disorder after two or three weeks but thought home robberies could increase.<br /><br />He passed over my suggestions --AK47, 1911 Colt 45 -- in favor of a Remington 870 pump.<br /><br />When you are dealing with multiple assailants breaking into your house-- maybe at two different points -- you do not have time to dick around. <br /><br />You don't have time to pump 4 or five rounds into an assailant --because his buddy is drawing a bead on you in the meantime -- and yet you need to make sure that assailant A is down and won't be shooting your or your wife in the back before you move on to Assailant B.<br /><br />Violent People can be very hard to stop --even if you put multiple rounds into them -- if you don't hit the heart or brain. Plus it can be hard to hit moving figures.<br /><br />For short range (less than 20-25 yards) combat, the Shotgun with double ought buckshot is still <br />the best tool. <br /><br />Especially if you are alone and don't have a squad of guys with fully automatic M16s backing you up.Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-58862602451130779032009-10-30T09:44:54.869-07:002009-10-30T09:44:54.869-07:00I prefer birdshot to 00 buck, it will cut a man to...I prefer birdshot to 00 buck, it will cut a man to ribbons at short range. My primary HD weapon is a 20 gauge double barrel. No racking that one.<br /><br />Anyone who is still around and looking for trouble will get the handgun backup.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com