tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post3778383507822573753..comments2024-02-11T01:14:21.904-08:00Comments on SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the ScienceFerFALhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07578136334334588454noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-9004334975398312562015-06-01T01:41:08.926-07:002015-06-01T01:41:08.926-07:00Fist, regarding the military, they have not found ...Fist, regarding the military, they have not found the 9mm to be inadequate. Even if they had it would be because they use full metal jacket ( FMJ) ammo instead of a good self defense ammo.<br /><br />A good self defense ammo in 9mm for example will give you 20 rounds in a Beretta M9 (Beretta 92) instead of 7 or 8 rounds [n a 1911 chambered in .45 acp .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-66678405524553350342015-02-18T11:40:28.131-08:002015-02-18T11:40:28.131-08:00Virtually everything that Don Williams has posted ...Virtually everything that Don Williams has posted is made up internet crap, derp opinion, or has been proven to be completely false in the terms of modern wound ballistics.<br /><br />The military is NOT going back to the .45acp, except for the Marine MARSOC, which bought a 1911 system off of emotion, a gun that didn't even pass.<br />it's own testing criteria.<br />Even then, just yesterday they announced that they will also be suing the Glock 19 for some of their missions. <br />Delta has been using .40, on red dot equipped Glock 22s, for some jobs in specific circumstances, but the vast majority of guys in the special units not using an M9 are using a Glock 19.<br /><br />The 9mm actually has an advantage over the .45 in the military field, due to being able to penetrate barriers better. Things like a loaded AK magazine chest rig, a full canteen, a steel helmet, often stop a .45 FMJ cold, but are easily penetrated by 9mm ball.<br /><br />One reason the 9mm is the choice for the FBI now is the very FACT that their 9mm duty ammo equals their .40 duty ammo in performance, and EXCEEDS their .45acp duty ammo in performance.<br /><br />To quote a friend who has shot or seen shot over 20 people with 9mm NATO ball launched from pistols, "None of them were unimpressed with the cartridge".<br /><br />What does the world's leading expert on gunshot wounds say?;<br />“…there is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9 mm and the .45 ACP cartridges.”<br />Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.<br /><br />To quote a retired Special Forces guy I know "All handguns are pathetic pop guns". Even the .45Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04218043571779230213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-90628832370634366132015-01-16T06:28:46.824-08:002015-01-16T06:28:46.824-08:00"After the Miami Shootout in 1986, the FBI in..."After the Miami Shootout in 1986, the FBI invented modern ammunition testing and led the law-enforcement movement to .40 caliber."<br /><br />No. After that shootout the FBI 'invented' the 10mm semi-auto which turned out to be a huge mistake. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-85665001321631144362015-01-14T09:28:42.647-08:002015-01-14T09:28:42.647-08:00Do you think those police would have reacted any d...Do you think those police would have reacted any differently if they had .45's?<br />In that instance what they experienced was the feedback they got from the shooting they could hear and not knowing if it was their fellow policeman or the suspect. Not an uncommon occurrence and it is the inevitable result of inexperience. It has zippo to do with the caliber of their weapon. <br /> <br />The problem is and always has been that the caliber is a compromise. My favorite vehicle is a pickup truck but if I were young and single I would like a corvette. I had to compromise and buy a station wagon because I was married and had kids. The same thing is true with a handgun. The perfect handgun, in my opinion, is a .357 revolver. reasonable accurate, reasonably powerful and reasonably trouble free. But if you live in Alaska they laugh at .357 and nothing less then a .44 mag is their choice. If you are a policeman who previously carried a .38 revolver you now carry a 9mm auto and it is in fact a better gun for the street. I like a full size frame 9mm auto but it is a poor choice for CC. This list of pro's and cons goes on and on endlessly. SO no matter what caliber you choose and/or for what purpose there will be a valid or even not so valid arguement for it or against it. It is all a compromise. Is there a "perfect" handgun for "combat"? NO! In fact no handgun is suitable for combat today and the only reason they still use and issue handguns to the military is for those unusual circumstances that lend themselves to a handgun. Probably a better answer for the military would be to replace the handgun with one or two more clips of rifle ammo. But even that compromise would anger some. <br />The point of all this is or should be to find the better compromise and not to prove that "you" are right and someone else is wrong. For the FBI and cops I think 9mm is the best compromise. I think 10mm and .40 would be about as good. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-10909430938659498762015-01-14T02:29:39.118-08:002015-01-14T02:29:39.118-08:005x7.28mm5x7.28mmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-7544158591271315822015-01-13T19:39:55.099-08:002015-01-13T19:39:55.099-08:00Re Anon at 10:04 AM:
NYPD firing 41 rounds at an ...Re Anon at 10:04 AM:<br /><br />NYPD firing 41 rounds at an unarmed man suggests they don't have a high confidence in their 9mm.<br /> <br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Amadou_Diallo<br /><br />I wonder why they didn't just call in an artillery strike?Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-28254994659094861212015-01-13T19:35:02.131-08:002015-01-13T19:35:02.131-08:001) The primary factor --as the Army's Modular ...1) The primary factor --as the Army's Modular Handgun System RFP recognizes -- is the size of a person's hands. If I had huge paws I would go with a double-stacked 45 ACP. <br /><br />But when a gun recoils, the bottom of the grip rotates upward around the pivot point of where the grip meets the web of the hand. For accuracy, it is important that the little finger and ring fingers have a good hold on the grip and can restrain the rotation.<br /><br />For small to medium hands, a Glock 22 Gen 4 in 40 S&W may work better than a double-stacked 45. Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-54634481652403728402015-01-13T10:04:00.233-08:002015-01-13T10:04:00.233-08:00The .45 is marginaly more powerful but for those w...The .45 is marginaly more powerful but for those who cannot divest themselves of their bias the .45 is "god".<br />The 10mm and .40 cal has better stopping power than the 9mm. But more recoil and thus in a crisis situation less accurate.<br />The .357mag has great stopping power and .44mag even better but unavailable in a semi-auto.<br />The problem, seperate from the caliber bias, is that most handgun shots fired in a high stress situation do not hit the target. Thus what is needed is a low recoil and a high capacity clip where the bullet itself can be altered to complete the picture giving you a better chance. Right now that caliber is 9mm. I understand that you have had your .45 for 50 years and you love it and cannot stand the fact that everyone doesn't love it but get over it. It was never "that" good and certainly not as good as the 10mm or the .40. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-40017353707907409682015-01-13T06:51:04.914-08:002015-01-13T06:51:04.914-08:00....because females can fire 9mm better???....because females can fire 9mm better???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-33532507563840318482015-01-13T05:19:33.072-08:002015-01-13T05:19:33.072-08:00Clarifications:
1) Power density of a handgun is t...Clarifications:<br />1) Power density of a handgun is total power divided by volume, not volume divided by total power.<br />2) Higher capacity mags are also an advantage if facing multiple attackers, especially they wear body armor.<br />3) Re item 11, the Secret Service uses the high velocity 357 Sig (as do the Federal Air Marshalls.) with the larger temporary wound cavity. <br />Shooters in those two services obviously face threats more demanding than what the average FBI agent is likely to encounter. <br /><br /><br />The FBI report doesn't address the effects of hydrostatic shock on nerve plexus like the solar plexus. That --and the failure to address sucking chest wounds to lungs -- indicate it is more a bureaucrat's hand-waving, butt-covering memo than a medical analysis.<br /><br />While surprises and ambushs happen, LEO's response to a potential threat is to bring lots of backup and/or SWAT (HRT in the FBI's case), not to get a better gun. Getting more people qualified and adequately armed with limited budgets is the focus of many LEO organizations, with the exception of those who can't compromise, like the Secret Service , Federal Air Marshalls, Delta,etc. FBI HRT and LAPD Swat use 45 ACP.Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-6398056467236814162015-01-12T20:38:29.885-08:002015-01-12T20:38:29.885-08:00(cont)
6) While federal LEO qualification courses ...(cont)<br />6) While federal LEO qualification courses call for shooting out to 25 yards, FBI statistics indicate most gunfight occur within 7 yards. At that range it is essential to hit with the most power with 3 rounds at small fleeting targets in dim light, which gives the advantage to the 45 ACP. At those distances, you are not likely to have time to fire more.<br />7) At the same time, the advant of body armor has led to the need for more rounds -- instead of two rounds to the unarmored chest, one may need two rounds to the pelvis (to stop a charge) plus one to the head (to stop the attacker once he is immobilized.) This gives the double stacked 40 S&W or 357 SIG the advantage over the single stack 1911 45 ACP. <br />8) Unlike FBI agents--who are investigators-- US State Police have to aggressively confront multiple suspects many times a day in isolated rural areas --alone , without backup and with SWAT teams far away. Which may be why, as of July 2014, State Police forces in 36 states used 40S&W or 357 Sig, 14 used the 45 ACP or 45 GAP (albeit in Glocks, SIGs etc and not the 1911) and only two states used 9mm.<br />9) Re stopping power, the FBI overlooks a third means of incapacitation --the sucking chest wound. The lungs are huge targets compared to the brain. A 45 ACP sized hole both front and rear causes a sudden decompression of the lung , which makes the heart start to malfunction as the lung leans on it. Definitely gets the attention. Whereas the pointed 9mm --if it fails to expand --makes a small icepick wound that is practically self-sealing.<br />10) Precise marksmanship is all very well but researchers have noted that many police shootings occur in conditions not tested on qualification courses -- close range ambushes in dim or confusing light. Somewhere in the center of mass or pelvis may be all that is feasible.<br />11) And the FBI should not scoff at the cavitation effect of a high speed pistol round -- I saw a news video of a robber at a shopping mall knocked on his behind when an off duty Secret Service agent shot him near the solar plexus.<br /><br />12) The FBI is hardly the preeminent federal law enforcement unit --in many ways, Immigration and Customs Enforcement(ICE) is more influential. When the federal government hired thousands of contract security guards in recent years, their qualification course was a relaxed version of ICE's, not the FBI's.<br />13) There is nothing wrong with the 9mm. CIA has long used it --probably because if you shoot someone in a foreign country, a 45 ACP or 40 S&W points right back to the local US Embassy. Plus 9mm is easier to commandeer<br />in isolated locations. Seals have used a +P+ version , probably because it was common to their silenced MP5 submachine guns. Plus it is a frugal use of lead.<br /><br />But both Marine SOC and SOCOM chose the 45 ACP and Delta Force reportedly choose the 40 S&W sweet spot between power and hi-capacity mags.Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8939666320943790100.post-55237550699930003722015-01-12T20:37:45.622-08:002015-01-12T20:37:45.622-08:00I would note several points not addressed by the F...I would note several points not addressed by the FBI statement:<br /><br />1) The military has found the 9mm FMJ to have inadequate stopping power on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan. One of their primary requirements for the new Modular Handgun System is that the MDS fire a cartridge that gives a bigger permanent wound channel than the current 9mm Nato FMJ round-- which is roughly +P in power.<br />2) It is a waste of a handgun's limited energy to design significant distortion of a lead bullet -- such limited penetration rounds is why several FBI agents were wiped out in the Miami shootout. Plus hollow point rounds may fail to expand if clogged with clothing fibers -- one reason why the FBI tests the performance of rounds fired through heavy jackets, residential building wall board , plywood and auto windshields.<br />3) Throwing out the 3.14 pi factor, a cartridge's cross-sectional area is proportional to its diameter squared. 9mm squared gives 81. 10mm squared gives 100. 11.4 squared (45 acp) gives 131. In standard weight and velocities, the the FMJ penetrate roundly the same depth, with the result that two 45 acps give the same permanent wound channel as THREE 9mms.<br />4) The permanent wound channel of a bullet is a function of its momentum --mass times velocity(MV). MV for a 9mm is significantly less than that of a 45 acp with the 40 S&W in between.<br />5) The power density of a handgun is its volume divided by its total power. Total power is momentum of a cartridge times the number of rounds in the magazine. Calculation will show that double-stacked 9mm and 40 S&W Glocks have more power density than a single stacked 1911 45 ACP but that the 40 S&W's power density is greater than that of the 9mm.<br />Don Williamsnoreply@blogger.com