Wednesday, June 29, 2011

Reply: How to deal with Flash Mobs

Anonymous said…
Suarez is a heavy hitter in pistolcraft:

I wouldn’t so quickly dismiss the very real problem of getting sued if your actions are uncalled for. Whiel I get what Suarez means, not all gun owners are level-headed people with professional firearm’s training on their back and they need to be reminded that if you pull a gun or shoot a bunch of low lives that aren’t clearly threatening your life you will go to jail for a long time. As these flash mobs continue, sooner or later a gun owner will get scared and start shooting when the situation didn’t call for it. Guys, there’s cameras EVERYWHERE today.  Make no doubt. Act as if your actions are being filmed. You probably are.

If you pull a gun, be sure that the situation calls for it. Don’t just do it because you don’t like the way a bunch of people look or how they dress or the color of their skin. Agitated group? Already vandalizing stores and harassing people and they are now going for you? Yes, you probably should draw… IF there’s no way out for you to escape. Still hurrying towards you shouting threats in spite of your weapon being drawn and you clearly commanding the nice gentlemen to back off? Don’t wait until you’re on the floor being kicked to death. In spite of being outnumbered if you shoot your attacker the others will more than likely hurry away with haste, remembering that turkey they forgot in the oven. There’s going to be some explanation to be done, but at least you’re alive.

As you learn when you train, you don’t threaten with a gun, you draw as the natural previous step before shooting. By this I mean your actions should go along with dead serious resolve. If the attackers keep moving towards you, you will use your firearm to stop the one that is closest, the one that is more of a threat.

I’ve come across this sort of revolts and mobs hundreds of times. You can’t avoid that in Buenos Aires since its been happening every week, (sometimes on daily basis) because of one excuse or another since the economic collapsed. For those that are half aware, you just don’t get caught by a mob. They are loud, they are numerous and you just see them before they are too close unless you’re totally unaware of your surroundings. Keep your eyes and ears opened and you will not get caught by a mob. If you happen to see a bunch of teenagers rushing into a store you’re in, don’t stay there dumb faced, RUN OUT OF THE PLACE! .As always and especially in this case, awareness will make the big difference. Start shooting into such a crowd is the most desperate last resort.

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Matt said...

I've read Gabe Saurez materials for many years now, way before he became "Saurez International etc." Back when he was a cop writing pay as you go pieces for various gun magazines. His weapon handling advice seems to be pretty good. I'd avoid his "security" advice like the plague. He doesn't mention what to do if your flash mob has more people than you have ammunition. Doesn't mention what to do if one of those peoples with a panga that you shot in the face doesn't oblige and fall down, instead keeps moving in an gets a couple of good whacks in even shot 4 or 5 times by good ammunition. He didn't mention of how to avoid or break out of and escape that mob either.

Double Tapper said...

The best way to deal with mob trouble is not to be there when it begins. If you can't avoid it, then move with the crowd until you can get out of it. I have been in this situation a couple of times. Concerts are notorious places to get trampled. You have to stay on your feet and must NEVER get backed into a wall or closed space. You have to work your way to the outside of the mob, always staying on your feet. Once clear, move away quickly, but rationally.

I would really hesitate to start shooting unless my life was in imminent danger from physical assault for some of the following reasons:

First off, the mob is bigger than you and your firepower, unless you have a squad or platoon, in which case you are the mob. Once you pull the trigger some things are certain to happen. People will run amok trying to get away. Others, however, who are armed may try to shoot you. A person with a concealed carry weapon, all legit, may take you for the bad guy and open up on you. The cops, when they show up, and they will probably sooner than later, will at the very least disarm you and bring you in for questioning. This leads to...

Second, you are liable for every projectile that leaves your weapon. In close, crowded quarters, there is a damned good chance you are going to hit someone who is NOT a card-carrying bad guy. That is your ass civilly, if not criminally. A criminal charge could result from any of many legal aspects. First, did you use "disproportinate force". Second, did you escalate a situation beyond where it was heading to begin with. Third, if your victim is unarmed, you may get into trouble using deadly force. If you shoot in a mob situation you are SURE to be civilly sued regardless of the criminal culpability.

I know a lot of US States have passed "castle laws" and "no retreat" laws and some have moved to curtail civil lawsuits when a person conducts a "good" or justified shoot. How much this means, I don't know. What I do know is you life will suck until the Grand Jury returns a "no-true-bill" which means you aren't going to be criminally tried for manslaughter or worse, second degree murder. You will then have the threat of civil action for at least a year. You had better have a blanket insurance policy or your will lose everything you have if the plaintiff wins.

Third, race and words matter. Once you interject any sort of racial language into the argument, you have just compounded your potential troubles. You have got to keep a cool head at all times to get out of a mob mess alive. I cannot emphasize this enough - YOU CANNOT ESCALATE THE SITUATION. Words, stares, taunts that are not followed up by actions cannot be met with lethal force.

Double Tapper said...

Continued - With all that said, someone trying to attack with me any kind of weapon gets double tapped. Same goes for multiple attackers even if they are "just" trying to beat you with their fists. If you are attacked with ANY kind of object, that is assault with a deadly weapon or even attempted murder. Knives and bats and other types of makeshift weapons are very deadly. All it takes is on hit on the head and you are gone - either dead or a vegetable. Keep your eyes open and scanning for trouble. If you have to shoot someone, get the hell out of there quickly. You need to notify the cops, but only when you are safe from further mob action. Even though the first body on the ground will send most everyone scurrying (Yes, I have seen a gunfight up close in a crowded venue where a person had her head literally blown off), you have to be clear of the area for when the mob regroups and decides for revenge or just more mischief.

The aftermath and lawyers and the cops

In the US at least, you are going to have to deal with the cops. Two schools of thought on this one. The first one, which I subscribe to, is you don't say anything without and attorney present. Period. In the heat of the moment, emotions running high, adrenalin high, you are going to babble a bunch of nonsense that the cops WILL use against you when it comes to testifying at a grand jury hearing or trial. So, most definitely, "lawyer up". My opinion is that cops are never your friends and are not helpful in these situations. They cannot be because of the nature of their jobs. The DA WANTS to put you away. That is just the way it is. Others believe that you should fully cooperate with the cops, if you have done nothing wrong. That makes sense, but right now, with the drug war and other infrigements on our civil liberties, just walking on the street is just cause for taking you to jail in the eyes of most courts. Beware.

Just a few thoughts from someone who has seen a few of these things go down.....as with all free advice and stories, your mileage may vary.

Anonymous said...

Just having a gun puts you in a worse position. If you don't pull the gun and defend yourself then they will very likely find the gun when they beat you up and shot you with it. If you have the gun and are attacked you must use it. Simple as that. Then comes the question of what is an attack? If they are close enough to you to overpower you before you can get the gun out and are hostile then you are "being attacked". Unless you are hoping they will take pity on you you must pull the gun before they get close. I am not sure people who carry a gun are aware of this part of the problem. If you have it you must pull it to scare off the attacker and if you are attacked you must use it. It is NOT a case of deciding AFTER the situation is clearly a life threatening attack. You must be committed to pulling the gun when you feel threatened and using it before they actually contact you. Anything else, anything less is insane.

Anonymous said...

Always glad to get multiple perspectives. I'm not an expert in anything relevant.


Anonymous said...

Sorry, but the agency I worked for taught us that you drivethrough a "people block" IF it appears that you may be in danger. My 5,000 pound SUV is a far better tool for removing me and my family from a mob than any firearm.

FerFAL said...

Sorry, but the agency I worked for taught us that you drivethrough a "people block" IF it appears that you may be in danger. My 5,000 pound SUV is a far better tool for removing me and my family from a mob than any firearm.

You agency taught you to crush Americans with your SUV "IF it appears" that you "may" be in danger.
So basically any form of protest, or "people block", in American soil, you just run them over with your 5.000 pound SUV.
Good luck with that and your agency getting you out of jail!
You may get away with that during wartime in enemy territory. Do that in NYC or Chicago and we'll be seeing you in the news soon.


Anonymous said...

Unfortunately I am of the mind anymore that once you pull a firearm, it is all over for you and yours. It is pretty much a given that the law will pursue you and punish you and ruin your life for mere acts of self defense. One only has to research this at the surface to determine so. At the very least you will be tied up in exorbitant legal costs, not to mention the stigma that will forever surround your person for being the guy who pulled the trigger on person X.

This is why I disagree with a lot of the opinions that get mired in the endless debate of 'what will the law do to me for defending myself'.

To be honest, once you pull the trigger, there is no straddling the fence and hoping you aren't going to get screwed in one fashion or another.

You either submit and get murdered/attacked/raped/robbed/etc. or you go 'all in' and take your life into your own hands. At this latter point, I would argue that once you've taken the 'all in' option, you are all in for forever.

There will be no going to the cops for solace and protection. They're just out to meet quotas and look good in the papers. They have no intentions of protecting you, even if your self-defense was 100% justified.

No, if you use a gun in self defense, you may as well acknowledge that you either let the system or the bad guys get their hands on you, or you disappear. Completely and entirely disappear. Drop everything and bug out of your locale and go somewhere nobody would expect you to be and be someone nobody would recognize. In essence, you say goodbye to your old life forever.

As the infamous quote goes (and is readily applicable to a lot of things in life), "After the first one, the rest are free."

Anonymous said...

In America, I'm not sure if you have a better chance of getting robbed, or sung at by a flash mob. Just saying.

Anonymous said...

Dude you guys realize that the things you guys say you should do were mentioned right? Suarez DID advice people to run and NOT BE THERE inthe1stplace.The "aggressive" action he mentions are meant as a LAST DITCH option. You get into trouble for shooting ONE person... the courtroom is unfortunately something decent people have to deal with. So survive and deal with it. Either deal with the courts or deal with death. GREAT advice.