Thursday, November 5, 2009

Re:Vaccines and a little bit of crazy

Don Williams said...

Except for the elderly, most people do not have a natural immunity to the H1N1 virus. If we did not have vaccines, then probably close to 150 million Americans would get sick.

A fairly small subset has already died --in spite of enormous resources (hospital intensive care units, ventilators, Tamiflu etc.) devoted to caring for them. If 150 million become ill, then the healthcare system breaks and people die from lack of care. Because those who refused the vaccines overload limited resources.

Plus the more victims the H1N1 acquires, the greater the opportunity it has to mutate into a far more deadly form -- in which case the death rate could really soar.

There is a deep sickness in American political discourse nowdays -- spread by con men in megachurchs and on Fox News, funded by right wing billionaires with a malign agenda.

That sickness is that the opinion of the intentionally stupid is just as valid as the opinion of someone who has worked hard to determine the facts and the truth.

If our forefathers had not turned against the purveyors of ignorance -- against those who manipulate the minds of men and who are hence hostile to Science -- then we would be back in the days of the Dark Ages.

In which most people died before age 35 from disease, many women died in childbirth and in which 30 percent of the population could be lost to pandemics. A time in which a few were fat and rich while the masses lived in horrible conditions. A time when life was nasty, brutish and short.

If people don't want to accept reasonable public health measures, then let them be quarantined at home until the pandemic passes.

November 5, 2009 9:11 PM


Thanks Don. Excellent post, as always.

FerFAL

29 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hey, if you want to have blind faith in untested vaccines because the .gov says to, then go ahead, but as for me and mine, NO THANKS! Are you aware that this drug company was given a waiver, so that if people die as a side affect of these vaccines, the drug company is not liable?!?

Anonymous said...

I'll gladly stay quarantined at home before I'll give the H1N1 vaccine to my children. I don't agree with the "vaccines have nanobots in them for mind control" people, but I do have serious concerns with the speed with which the vaccines have been prepared, the methods they use, and the motives behind the current panic.

Patrick said...

I though the commenter on the previous post mentioning adjuvants as a culprit in the documented cases of nuerological disorders triggered by vaccinnes.

The H1N1 vaccinne is loaded with Squaline, this is admitted, and the makers have legal immunity so no problem.

I think the vaccinne issue gets confused, like the global warming issue, perhaps the question should not be "do vaccinnes work?" or "are they safe?" but rather "is there a causal link between the cost-saving measures of vaccinne manufacturers and the incidence of debilitating side-effects?"

I think these bastards are fattening their profit margins and injuring people for it. I think that's a no brainer. When they buddy up with government and a hysterically "responsibe" mentality in the wider population then you get the recipe for the masses to condone something stupid.

Look at the kill rate on H1N1, its statisticlaly less dangerous than the common flu. I think you're playing into a panic mentality and implicitly justifying government invasions of individual liberty.

Do you believe the government has the right to manage people risks on their behalf?

Urban Dweller said...

"There is a deep sickness in American political discourse nowdays -- spread by con men in megachurchs and on Fox News, funded by right wing billionaires with a malign agenda."

Some how it is the NeoCon's fault, again. Why didn't I guess that one.

The "deep sickness" is called the is called the 1st ammendment. Don't forget that the forefathes fought for that, too.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, that would be great if we could agree that the vaccine is a reasonable protective measure or that the gubmint could/would/should mandate that people stay in their homes because they refuse "reasonable" treatment. While the earlier post with its "nanotechnology" babble is clearly way out there, I'll give you that, there's something about lining up like sheep for a vaccine that (1) has absolutely no track record and (2) is questionable regarding whether it even works for (3) a flu strain that really does not appear to be dropping people in the streets. I come to this site everyday and comment because I thought we all commonly had a distrust of government here in the US (you know, the wise men who gave us entitlement programs galore, bankruptcies and bailouts, gun control, and now proposed State run medicine at a cost of trillions) and now you advocate quarantine for us "refuseniks"? Here's a tip for you -- when my kid's pediatrician said he did not feel comfortable giving my kid the vaccine, all the "reasonableness" to your argument flew out the window. Or maybe my doctor is crazy too. Roll up YOUR sleeve if you want to, and leave me the hell alone. If your vaccinated it won't matter if I'm not and I'm wandering the streets -- right?

Double Tapper said...

The reason people in affluent countries are skeptical of vaccines is because they have never seen the terrible diseases that the vaccines prevent....

Anonymous said...

Now I have printed out the post to make it easier to quote from.

"If we did not have vaccines, then probably close to 150 million Americans would get sick." I doubt it. I have never been vaccinated against any flu strain and have never gotten the flu. Everyone I know who gets it always gets the flu. I was vaccinated against the chicken pox and still got it. My wife was never vaccinated for it and has never gotten it. The H1N1 vaccine isn't even widely available yet. Ever been vaccinated for bubonic plague? Neither have I.

"... the greater the opportunity it has to mutate into a far more deadly form ... death rate could really soar." No, the world isn't swirling full of deadly germs with only thing between us and them a vaccine. These things often have very limited lifetimes and die off. At least some research suggests that even polio was on its way out when the vaccine was introduced. Maybe you are talking about biological warfare.

"... the opinion of the intentionally stupid ..." Are you saying I did not work hard to determine facts and truth regarding my refusal? Sounds like an ad hominem attack, which I thought FerFAL frowns upon.

"If our forefathers had not turned against the purveyors of ignorance ..." What the hell are you talking about? None of our forefathers would advocate vaccinations. They wanted less government intervention in our lives.

"... reasonable public health measures...let them be quarantined at home ..." You can stay home. Please don't tell me what to do.

sixpackoverhere said...

This is ridiculous. Regular flu kills more people every year. I am not against vaccination or anything but people you are freaking out about nothing.

FerFAL said...

To the Anon that thinks that somehow some people deserve hepatitis A, I’m not having that in my blog, so please go somewhere else.
To the other person that asks why those that get vaccinated worry about those that don’t: The more the virus spreads, the more likely it is to become immune to the existing vaccine, to mutate. So yes, those that don’t get vaccinated are indeed creating a greater risk for those that don’t.

That doesn’t mean you should get every shot ever created, but arguing the usefulness of vaccines or not is like claiming the world is flat (by the way, some people still think that. There’s even a website where it explains it in detail, how the round world “theory” is just a conspiracy.
I’m kind of getting tired of some of the nonsense being commented and I’m reaching the point were some people’s right to free speech is becoming a right to post some of the most ridiculous statements that I’ve read, turning my blog into a joke. Sorry folks, wont have that here.


Double Tapper said..."
The reason people in affluent countries are skeptical of vaccines is because they have never seen the terrible diseases that the vaccines prevent...."

Double Tapper, you’re 100% right. Its silly but while some people apparently fight to stop these deadly vaccines full of nanobots, other in other parts of the world have to fight their entire lives to get the government to pay for some of these vaccines, while watching kids die by the thousands like they did 100 years ago, from diseases that could have been prevented with a vaccine.

FerFAL

Don Williams said...

Well, lets see how the FACTS and Reason stand up against the supporters of voodoo medicine.

1) Re Anon at 5:29 AM, the H1N1 vaccine HAS been tested. The medical authorities who license its release would not allow it to be issued with tests to ensure that it will not harm most people.

See http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/frequently_asked_questions/vaccine_preparedness/safety_approval/en/index.html

2) The first rule of a doctor's Hippocratic is to not harm the patient further. Do you really think our doctors would allow the use of a vaccine if that vaccine did not help most patients?


3) In a population of hundreds of millions, a few people may have allergic reactions. The medical community monitors for that and reacts to it when it occurs.

4) Why is it that people think doctors --who work hard all their lives to get a medical education and who save people's lives every day -- are not to be trusted and some unqualified quacks on the Internet are?

Don Williams said...

Re Patrick's comment at 5:38 am:
"Look at the kill rate on H1N1, its statisticlaly less dangerous than the common flu. I think you're playing into a panic mentality and implicitly justifying government invasions of individual liberty."
-----------
Here is what the doctors at the Center for Disease Control are reporting this week:

"The proportion of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) based on the 122 Cities Report has increased and has been higher than what is expected at this time of year for four weeks now. In addition, 22 flu-related pediatric deaths were reported this week; 19 of these deaths were confirmed 2009 H1N1, and three were influenza A viruses, but were not subtyped.

Since April 2009, CDC has received reports of 114 laboratory-confirmed pediatric 2009 H1N1 deaths and another 12 pediatric deaths that were laboratory confirmed as influenza, but where the flu virus subtype was not determined."

"Total influenza hospitalization rates for laboratory-confirmed flu are climbing and are higher than expected for this time of year. Hospitalization rates continue to be highest is younger populations with the highest hospitalization rate reported in children 0-4 years old."

Ref: http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/update.htm

The H1N1 flu is dangerous to several subgroups -- infants,pregnant women, people with chronic health conditions like asthma, diabetes,etc. That is why those people have priority for receiving the flu shots.

The US Center for Disease Control has indicated that the H1N1 vaccine should be safe for most people and has been tested. Do you think those doctors are lying?

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/vaccine_safety.htm

Don Williams said...

Re Urban Dweller at 6:29 AM "Some how it is the NeoCon's fault, again. Why didn't I guess that one."

I did not say "Neocons" -- I said Fox News. Glenn Beck has been doing all he can to stir up fear and doubt re the H1N1 vaccine. See http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,563161,00.html

He's smart enough to not take a clear position or argue on the medical merits. Instead, it's more along the vague lines of " The H1N1 vaccine PROBABLY won't make your penis turn blue and drop off. So why not roll the dice and try it?"

Why people would put more faith in the medical judgment of an alcoholic than in the US medical community or their doctor escapes me.

Don Williams said...

1) Re anon at 7:20 Am: "These things often have limited timelines and die off"

When a new flu arrives to which most of the population does NOT have immunity, the spread of that flu can be explosive during the winter flu season, especially in our crowded cities. WHY do you think the US government has ordered 250 MILLION H1N1 vaccines?

WHY do you think that
HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius declared on Oct 1 that a Public Health Emergency exists in the USA that "affects or has significant potential to affect national security. "??

Anonymous said...

Oh, and it's me, ANON 6:37, 7:20, and the last one again. If my kid's pediatrician says he's not to give my kid the vaccine, why would I go with the pharmaceutical company's opposite recommendation instead?

Don Williams said...

Re Anon at 7:20 AM: "Re Anon's comment that "None of our forefathers would advocate vaccinations. They wanted less government intervention in our lives."
---------
This is kinda hilarious if you actually know history.

The United States probably would NOT have came into existence if George Washington had not ORDERED that the Continental Army be innoculated against the Smallpox epidemic that was spreading during the Revolutionary War. Even though that primitive innoculation was far more dangerous than today's vaccines.

The British Army had a high immunity to smallpox --the American colonists did not. So the British tried to spread smallpox as a biowarfare measure -- forcing Washington to innoculate the Continental Army lest it be destroyed.

See http://www.helium.com/items/630737-biological-warfare-during-the-american-revolution and
"Pox Americana" at
http://www.amazon.com/Pox-Americana-Smallpox-Epidemic-1775-82/dp/080907821X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top/180-0545144-5253643

Don Williams said...

Re Anon at 10:08: If your child's doctor --knowing your child's specific medical condition and situation --judges it is best to not vaccine the child then I can see you deferring to his opinion. If you live in a low-population rural area and your child is at home most of the time and is not likely to be exposed to H1N1, for example.

But that would not justify a blanket recommendation that the public not take the vaccine, especially in our highly crowded cities. A Rush Limbaugh dittohead on a subway with H1N1 can infect others up to 24 hours before symptoms of his sickness become apparent.

He doesn't risk just his life, he risks the lives of other adults on the train --especially those who have asthma or diabetes -- and the lives of infant children of those adults who carry the disease home.

A new flu can explode like a nuclear bomb in winter --you have the same exponential growth that you have with nuclear fission. Even if public health measures like vaccines and quarantines don't totally suppress the flu at first, they can slow the spread down enough that the healthcare system can handle the patients, the hospitals don't become hopelessly overcrowded, the disease doesn't have 150 million incubators in which to mutate or to develop resistance to anti-viral drugs like Tamiflu.

The public health measures buy time -- to develop vaccines, manufacture more drugs, expand capacity. If you are careless in managing a pandemic, it can overwhelm you before the public at large realizes the danger of the situation. By which point it is too late to respond.

Plus the US economy is teetering on the brink of Depression because of the irresponsibility and enormous debt run up by the Republican Congresses during the Bush Administration.

The damage to the economy from a major pandemic could easily tip it over into Depression. I can see why Fox News would be happy if that happened -- it would give them another excuse to criticize Obama.

But an economic depression is not in the interest of the American People.

Anonymous said...

Just because they're doctors and/or from the gov't doesn't mean they care about your best interests...see http://books.google.com/books?id=-sa-nUI3HGMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=question+of+torture#v=onepage&q=&f=false at page 44.

Conspiracy theory aside, there's good reason to be worried about cost-cutting measures, especially on a tight deadline. Things happen when you rush. But if you're not going to get vaccinated, isolate yourself as much as you can. The CDC ran a study and found that N95 masks worn properly in the presence of a positive ionizer greatly reduced likelihood of infection with viral particles...see http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/resources/pressrel/announcements/113004wkshp/pdfs/Presentation%2009_Sergey%20Grinshpun.pdf (second-to-last slide for virus postulate)

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0JqQyl09zQ&feature=player_embedded

If you only click through on one link we put up on Vault-Co, you should watch all six parts of this video posted to You-Tube. It's incredible. I went and verified four of the things she speaks of independently and she was spot on. Would you believe the media failed to tell you that the seasonal flu vaccine distributed earlier this year killed experimental animals 100% when it was given to them? That's right. 100%. Yet the vaccine was then given to thousands and thousands of people as part of their yearly flu shot. Do you find that boggles the mind?

Guess where one of the trials was conducted for this batch?

In the Ukraine.

Watch all six parts of this video. Be prepared to take the red pill.

Don Williams said...

Well, the seasonal flu vaccine didn't kill ME ,so here's one experimental animal that got off lightly, I guess.

Re Ukraine, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, who is campaigning for reelection, is quoted as saying: "I am not vaccinated. I am protecting myself like everybody, with lemon, onion, garlic, everything that is needed. I think the best way is simply to protect your health through well-known means."

She then went on and held a large public rally in Kiev a few days before all public gatherings were banned as a public health measure.

The result: Over 100 people have died in recent weeks. Although WHO may bail Yulia out with shipments of Tamiflu and medical supplies.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1934946,00.html?xid=rss-topstories#ixzz0WBB2rYNU

Anonymous said...

Gee Don, your original comment on the first thread had the nifty addition of people being quarantined with M16s. Why did you drop that little progressive wet dream in your subsequent posts? C'mon, you know you fantasize about it. Dittoheads at gunpoint, it makes you hot, don't it? Next we can round up climate criminals with our M16s. Ooh, yeah baby.
Sorry FerFal - love your blog and it's public service, but be careful who you endorse. If Don Williams was an Argentinian, he would be the one with the Peron t-shirt.

Don Williams said...

Re Anon at 9:07 AM "Gee Don, your original comment on the first thread had the nifty addition of people being quarantined with M16s. Why did you drop that little progressive wet dream in your subsequent posts?"
------------
actually, I didn't drop it and it is not my progressive wet dream. Quarantines have been enforced with armed force going back to George Washington and the founding of the US, as I cited.

Even today, If you sail a boat into a foreign port, the first thing you have to do is anchor in one of the designated arrival areas, raise the yellow Quarantine flag, and wait for a port official to come on board and clear you for entry into the country.

In the old days, you could get blown out of the water by cannon fire if you tried to land without port officials first coming on board and verifying that you were not importing disease.

Don Williams said...

Perhaps Anon should worry more about what is the Pentagon's wet dream?
Ever hear of NORTHCOM?

See http://www.progressive.org/wx042909.html
and http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/10/military_aclu_northcom_102108w/
and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=14987

Anonymous said...

Blaming Fox is becomming equal to blaming Bush and pulling the race card. It's about run it's course.

Don Williams said...

Re Anon at 1:01: "Blaming Fox is becomming equal to blaming Bush "

1) Well, Glenn Beck was questioning the judgement of the US medical community but he was awfully quick to run to our doctors two days ago when he contracted appendicitis.

So maybe that former drug abuser, high school graduate, recovering alcoholic and medical policy expert is not as dumb and/or stoned as he looks.

But Jon Stewart yesterday put out a hilarious parody of Glenn Beck's mental processes:

http://tv.yahoo.com/blog/glenn-becks-appendicitis-scare-inspires-jon-stewart-to-artfully-parody-him--763

Don Williams said...

And as far as George W Bush goes, I'm surprised Anon is speaking in his favor, given Anon's opposition to government coercion.

For 225 years of the US Republic,we
followed the decision of the Founding Fathers and left medical quarantines up to the state and local governments, using police to enforce them.

It was George W Bush who FIRST pushed in 2005 for using FEDERAL TROOPS to enforce quarantines.

The ACLU et al argued that the Posse Comitatus law bans use of the US military to enforce laws within the continental US. But George W and Dick Cheney regarded the laws and US Constitution in the same way that Captain Barbarossa regarded the Pirate's Code in "Pirates of the Caribbean":

"It's not really a RULE -- more like a GUIDELINE"

See the discussion starting at page CRS-17 of the Congressional Report on Quarantine laws and authorities at
http://info.publicintelligence.net/CRS_Quarantine_Authority.pdf .

See also this 2005 article from the Washington Post:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/906715251.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Oct+5%2C+2005&author=David+Brown&desc=Military%27s+Role+in+a+Flu+Pandemic%3B+Troops+Might+Be+Used+to+%27Effect+a+Quarantine%2C%27+Bush+Says


It always amused me that the very right wing groups who rant about freedom --e.g,. the NRA -- elected the closest thing we've had to a malign dictator in recent memory.

The Hurricane Katrina relief effort was crippled and delayed because Bush was trying to use the hurricane to coerce the Governor of Louisiana into letting him put the state under federal military occupation using the Insurrection Act -- to create a precedent.

Anonymous said...

Well, if you're all about forcing people to take vaccines and giving that power over individuals to government I can hardly see how you could complain when the government who supposedly knows better decides to give out free soccer TV rather than save poor street kids or choosing to raid bank savings of the elderly.

Having your cake and eating it too is supporting the power of government over the individual in one area, while wanting control from government in another area. You cannot have it both ways.

Anonymous said...

There are good reasons to question the vaccine. I'm not saying I won't get vaccinated, I haven't decided, but I don't think objectors are crackpots. The concerns about the vaccine include some valid points:

1) Squalene is used to make the vaccine. Squalene is intended to boost the immune system's reaction to the vaccine. Countries are ordering HUGE amounts of vaccine, enough to vaccinate nearly the whole planet, on a rush order. It takes time to grow that much virus, so mfg are using less virus per dose and using a super-adjuvant (squalene) to amp up the immune system to make the body recognize, respond to, and develop antibodies to the small quantity of virus in the vaccine. Squalene hasn't been used in our regular vaccines (it is used in Europe), and people are questioning whether it is safe to use for EVERYBODY who gets vaccinated. There's science supporting both sides.

Squalene is a natural substance in the body. Some people have antibodies to squalene, which could indicate an immune system that thinks its own squalene stores are an enemy. That's the basis of auto-immune disorders - the body attacking normal tissues. There are allegations of squalene being in a vaccine used in Gulf War soldiers and being the cause of Gulf War syndrome. I haven't looked hard, but I found more evidence against this theory than for.

However, if the vaccine makes the immune system get really amped, it could potentially confuse the immune system into treating natural bodily compounds as an invader - that is, it might induce an auto-immune disorder. Auto-immune disorders are increasing in the Western world, we don't know why yet.

2) Regular seasonal flu vaccines can cause Guillan Barre syndrome in 1 out of each million vaccinations. But GB is bad, it can cause paralysis, disability, even death. Nobody wants GB, and it's a devil's trade to choose between a 1-in-a-million risk of paralysis or a week in bed with flu w/a potential mortality rate around 1% (1918 flu had 2.5% mortality rate). But the 1 per million GB rate for vaccines is based on all flu vaccines, most of which don't contain squalene. In the 70's era swine flu vaccine, 500 people developed GB out of 40 million vaccinated, an unexpectedly high rate of complication.

3) So far, swine flu is not super-dangerous. Most people have a mild flu and recover. Some people die. (The virus is young, and 1918 Spanish flu started mild but became very deadly.) Vaccine opponents object to mandatory vaccination because it could cause health outcomes that are worse than the virus we are trying to defend against.

4) Vaccine companies have been absolved of all liability. I support limited legal protection for manufacturers because they are rushing the vaccine by public demand. But blanket protection means that they could send vials of cyanide as "vaccines" and have no liability. They wouldn't send cyanide, except by accident, but legal immunity can make for sloppy vaccine work. What scares a lot of vaccine objectors is that a large batch of unsafe vaccine went out in February - with live, un-weakened viruses of a type that, injected together, could have CREATED a pandemic. (Google baxter vaccine contaminated). If they did that - accidentally or evil-ly - without blanket immunity, why do we think their production processes will be less error-prone with the largest vaccine order ever AND blanket legal immunity? It's a valid worry.

Bill in NC said...

In the U.S. H1N1 has already killed, in a single week, half the number of children who usually die in an entire year from seasonal flu.

H1N1 has proven significantly more deadly for children than the seasonal flu.

About 1/3 of those deaths occurred in children with no known health issues.

Also, here in the U.S. there are no adjuvants in the H1N1 vaccine.

The adjuvant MF59 has been used in Europe for tens of millions of vaccine doses with no reported side effects.

Had we used adjuvants here in the U.S. we would have substantially more H1N1 vaccine now available to vaccinate children and other high-risk cohorts.

Anonymous said...

My daughter and I both had H1N1 and it was hardly the illness it's being hyped. We've had far worse seasonal flu in this house.

Some people are more prone, likely for genetic reasons, but don't fall for the hysteria.

Marie E
USA