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Javier Liendo said..."... but I challenge you to mention one single country where people enjoy the freedom and rights they do in America..."
Norway, Finland or for that matter any of the other three Scandinavian countries?
Even in the more gun friendly countries you have to keep in mind that you are still in Europe and part of the EU. That itself presents some advantages but some disadvantages as well. You're part of something else than your country alone.
Imagine a North American Union (Canada, USA and Mexico) how free does it feel now?
Socialism is spreading through Europe at a rate that is too much for my personal preferences. As nive as many European countries are you feel the socialism and politically correctness on the daily lives as well. Socialism is considered a good thing by most in Europe. If that's your thing, you'll be like fish in water there.
About guns, even gun friendly European countries, it is NOT USA. In Sweeden you're allowed to keep your military issued rifle at home with ammo... but the ammo is strictly controlled. Its specifically issued and done that way for a military strategic advantage, it is NOT done for person freedoms and rights. BIG difference guys.
The key point is right to carry. Challenge thrown again: How many of these fabulous countries some of you seem to favor allow the citizens to carry for self defense as well as the security of the state, and says so clearly in its constitution and bill of right?
Come on guys, never thought I'd have to convince Americans that USA is better than Europe. Are they putting drugs in the water over there or something?
Almost all countries have freedom of speech, yet no country in the world except USA gives its citizens such power to be self reliant about their own personal security and control over the State in the gravest extreme like USA does.
FerFAL
33 comments:
Great post FerFAL!
A saying comes to mind: "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
I am not happy with the direction my country is going, but I still have not seen anywhere that is as free in the important areas. At least for now.
The US was a great country with many freedoms that the powers who ruled that world 100 years ago didnt like at all.
When the US decided to replace UK as the head of the british empire the roles did change.
From a great country to the single biggest terrorist nation on the face of the planet in less than 100 years.
It also wiped out 90% of the liberties and rights the average US citizen used to have...what little is left often is not worth the paper it is written on.
One thing Ferfal does not take into consideration here is:
How much are your rights worth in *the real world* when you are sunk into debt up to your ears?
If you are indebted there is no real freedom and how many people in the US you know who dont have any debts?
So to answer the challenge:
What about south america?
As long as you have a least some money you live pretty damn well down here.....
As nive as many European countries are you feel the socialism and politically correctness on the daily lives as well. Socialism is considered a good thing by most in Europe.
You're very right. Though it's not a new thing here, it seems the left wing movement is taking on more and more radical ways of expressing themselves and things like tradition and patriotism are actually considered harmful extremism nowadays
About guns, even gun friendly European countries, it is NOT USA. In Sweeden you're allowed to keep your military issued rifle at home with ammo... but the ammo is strictly controlled.
Yeah you're actually talking about Switzerland, not Sweden. As of right now, Sweden is in the process of converting their army from a poorly staffed conscript army to a professional-only army and getting rid of most of their existing troops.
The key point is right to carry. Challenge thrown again: How many of these fabulous countries some of you seem to favor allow the citizens to carry for self defense as well as the security of the state, and says so clearly in its constitution and bill of right?
None. The finnish politicians are actually trying to ban all hand weapons and will very likely succeed due to the recent school shootings.
I live in Florida, and have had a permit to carry a concealed weapon for years. I carry my Glock every day, legally. I can legally carry it almost everywhere, into restaurants that serve alcohol, onto school grounds, in libraries, churches, parks, etc. I am just a normal guy with no criminal history. I got my CCW permit by filling out an application form, submitting my fingerprints, and a copy of my military discharge from years ago. I don't know anyone special and didn't even have to talk to anyone about the CCW permit. I can also legally carry my handgun concealed in 32 other states with my Florida CCW. There are no limits on how much ammo or how many weapons I can buy. There are some restrictions on carrying weapons into some government buildings, and on some types of weapons like machine guns. But even then I could easily get a permit to get a machine gun if I wanted one. Compare that to how easy it is to get/keep/carry a weapon in Finland or the EU or the rest of the world.
The U.S. is #24 for number of murders per capita, well behind other countries who have very strict gun control, including several in the EU. (Finland is pretty good at #30)
The U.S. is #8 for all crimes per capita, well behind several other countries that have strict gun control. (Finland is #3) I would also submit that the reporting of all crimes is better in the U.S. and EU countries, (Colombia is #1 for murder, but only #53 for all crimes).
Statistics are from nationmaster.com
I have to side with FerFal here. Yes, the Scandanavian countries are a lot nicer than USA in several ways (crime, healthcare, etc). This is mostly due to having a very low population growth, well-educated people people of similar backgrounds, and a lot of oil and natural resources for the population numbers.
But they are also right next door to Russia, and could never hope to defend themselves from a real enemy that wants those resources.
With our rights here in the USA, unfortunately, comes a lot of responsibility. Voting sensibly, defending our nation from those in the world who want to take it, serving our community, etc. While a lot of my generation doesn't get it, enough still do to make it a great country.
Socialism only works in these places because they haven't developed a huge burden of "non-producers" yet to crush the system.
JN-EMT
FerFAL is right about the restrictions on weapons in Scandinavia. In Sweden, where I live, you are not allowed to carry any kind of weapon for self defense, at all. All self defense tools are viewed as "street fighting weapons". Knives are banned in public places unless you use a knife as a tool in your everyday job. The same goes for tools, if you don't use a particular tool, like a screwdriver or a hammer, for your job, it's unlawful to carry it in public places if it can be used as a weapon.
Your car, btw, is always considered a public place, so if you're not going to or from, say, a baseball game, a baseball bat in your trunk is considered a "street fighting weapon" and can be confiscated, and you can at least theoretically be arrested for carrying/transporting it.
Rifles are only allowed by license if you are a hunter or sport shooter, and handguns are only allowed for sport shooting and are heavily restricted. (Though you can be licensed to own several military/police type pistols, it's just that the process and requirements for getting a license are so cumbersome that legal handguns are very rare. And there's no right to carry.)
On the bright side of things, long blades are not at all restricted as long as you keep them in your home. And hunting bows are also legal, no license needed to own one.
There are drugs in the water,
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336286,00.html
it explains many thingsaa
Note that a lot of countries have laws on paper that they don't honor...or traditions that have the force of law. (Mainly Africa and S. America, Mideast, Asia)
Europe is different from the USA, folks. The gov't is not nearly as responsive to the people as here in the US, from what I have seen.
Yes, drugs are being put in drinking water in America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_water_quality_in_the_United_States#Pharmaceutical_substances
Figuring out which is better is like trying to figure out which cat is better at catching mice; a black cat or a brown cat.
The only right that most Americans of Japanese decent in 1942 had was "Right this way," into prison camps.
"Almost all countries have freedom of speech..."
Sadly, that is not true in most of Europe. Offending someone is becoming a crime. Look at what is happening to Geert Wilders for daring speak the truth about Islam!
Not surprisingly, it does not stop there. In England, it is your duty to flee your home if a yob breaks in the door and threatens your life -- to defend oneself is to flirt with prison. The papers are full of cases of pensioners tried and convicted for daring to defend their lives and property. Madness, I tell you.
"Are they putting drugs in the water over there or something?"
Yes, it would seem so.
I can't speak for all Scandinavian countries but I've spent quite a bit of time in Norway. Hunting is popular and it's not too difficult for law abiding citizens to own rifles or shotguns. Handguns are also legal to own so Norway isn't as bad as most European countries.
But, I have to agree with the main points Ferfal makes. There is no right to own a gun in Norway and the idea of owning a gun for self defense is just out of the question.
Also, your firearms are required to be securely locked up in your home and the police are allowed to enter your home to check that your guns are securely stored. That would be unheard of in the USA.
There is no license to carry in Norway, forget about it. If you happen to be in a bad part of town after dark then you can only dream about your gun, which is safely locked up at home where the Norwegian government thinks it belongs.
In the USA, in my state, I can purchase and open carry a loaded pistol without a license. My license to carry concealed costs me $10 for 4 years. I'm in a "shall issue" state so unless I'm a felon or a lunatic once I pay my $10 they have to give me my license. That's true gun rights. No where in Europe even comes close.
Patrick
"Almost all countries have freedom of speech..."
To some extent, yes, but look at Geert Wilders in Denmark, Mark Stein in Canada of France in general.
Most "Western" governments only tolerate 'free speech' as long as it isn't uncomfortable.
Snoop-Diggity-DANG-Dawg
...as long as your papers are in order,and obey,, you are 'free.
There are no 'free' countrys,,only the illusions of freedom..
Wake up,,,stop wrapping yourself in the flag of the usa,they will burn you out,(ie Waco,Ruby Ridge,)and
all the others if they see you as a 'threat'.
The Southern memories are long and deep concerning what the union did..
Be well brothers,we fly no mans flag,,...
I live in the U.S. and I think it is the best country. Perhaps with all the political frustration here, some people can see only the negatives. But aside from that, as you said Ferfal, still a lot of great things about this country that are easy to take for granted if you live here.
"yet no country gives it's people..."
What is a country? How does it "give" anything? This use of words confuses what's really going on in all human societies: a few people have figured out how to rule over the many, farming them for taxes, restricting the kinds of things they can own, ingest, carry, display, or say (even in the good 'ole US of A you will can fined for advertising for a room mate who is "not gay."). The rulers use all sorts of mythology to get those who are ruled, extorted and bullied to consent to their slavery, the favorite being "democracy," where the slaves think they control the plantation.
Arguing that the USA is the freest is like two slaves arguing about which plantation treats its slaves best. The whole concept makes me sick and reinforces the age-old truth that all slavery is in the mind and that most people PREFER slavery to freedom, including the corn-fed heifers in the USA.
The flaw in your pro-gun argument is the belief that you need to carry a weapon to defend yourself - in most European countries the only danger from a firearm to you or your family is if one of your family members deliberately or accident discharges it.
You can criticise socialism, but you don't get desperate people committing armed robbery so that they can eat.
Gun crime in the UK is mainly limited to young black shooting each other or in very specific and well know area's such as Manchester's Moss side. Even there its strictly used between drug gangs. I not aware of of any incidence of armed mugging or robbery against persons using firearms in the UK - and the UK is one of the most violent countries in Europe.
"Are they putting drugs in the water over there or something?"
You weren't already aware of that?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-10-drugs-tap-water_N.htm
Ferfal:
I have lived in several countries. The USA is my country of CHOICE.
When I reached adulthood, it was my CHOICE to remain in the USA, although I could have declared citizenship in any one of 4 countries (peculiar circumstances of my birth and ancestry).
Besides the gun laws and the Constitutional rights we have in the US (Free speech, free press, freedom of religion, etc and so forth), consider other *freedoms* we have that are not enjoyed by citizens of many other countries:
Home schooling is severely restricted, controlled and even forbidden in many European countries.
Economic Freedom, vis-a-vis; starting your own business investing money as you want, buying land, etc. Think any of those are complicated in the US? Try buying a home in Australia or Switzerland. Try opening a home based business in Sweden.
Our justice/police and the laws and rules they have to follow. Try telling them to show you the warrant in another country. Miranda rights? They only exist here. That phone call? Nope...only your right here. Cop beat you up and you want to sue for police brutality? Can only do that here.
Yeah, our system has some flaws--and some pretty serious ones at that, but currently, it is the best there is.
So, complain about the US, heck, leave it if you want (huh! Another thing that not all countries will let you do!). Just leave your guns behind. I'll buy 'em...after all, I can freely own them here....
Well yes the U.S. Supreme court is set to possibly take up the second amendment for real, something they have avoided doing for too long.
But my state of California is as socialist in attitude as it gets about guns. Th
e latest is they are going to require id a record, and a fingerprint for all sales of hangun ammunition starting in January 2011.
The legislature even passed a bill requiring firearms manufacturers to use patented technology which identifies the gun each bullet is fired from on the bullet.
How about the ridiculous magazine capacity restrictions. You can't have a magazine greater than 10 rounds.
Do you think this stops the gangbangers from having guns with high capacities? No just watch some National Geographic Channel stuff on the gangs in LA and you will see 33 round clips, banana clips etc.
Its just more of the entrenched elite here digging in. Sure they don't mind if its tough for the little guy lawfully arm themselves. As long as they have access to their private armies of security to protect them.
When their private armies of off duty cops can't get guns then I suppose they will change their attitudes and maybe some of this nonsense will end.
Making weapons illegal doesn't stop criminals from getting them. You are just making it less likely that law abiding individuals will be able to protect themselves.
I could go on all day with the useless restrictions we have here. The net effect, its hard for the little guy to legally protect himself and the thugs still have all the illegal stuff.
"Our justice/police and the laws and rules they have to follow. Try telling them to show you the warrant in another country. Miranda rights? They only exist here. That phone call? Nope...only your right here. Cop beat you up and you want to sue for police brutality?"
You have no idea do you? Try reading wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miranda_warning
It existed in other countries long before the US.
Its pointless asking people what they think of living in other countries when they are so ignorant they don't even realise they are being crapped upon.
"The U.S. is #24 for number of murders per capita, well behind other countries who have very strict gun control, including several in the EU. (Finland is pretty good at #30)"
Hold on there, thats bull. The only European countries with higher murder rates than the US are bordering lawless Russian and the good supply of illegal weapons. Estonia,Latvia, Lithuania and the other ex-communist bloc countries also have large Russia criminal elements. They are second world nations.
Of the first world western countries, they go from France (less than half the Us Murder rate)to Greece (one sixth US murder rate). Countries like Germany, Holland, Norway, Spain etc have one quarter the murder rate of the US.
US has 9,369 murders with firearms, the UK has 14; per capital that 133 times as many. Spain, the highest murder rate with firearms in Western Europe at 94 - US has 15 times the number of firearm deaths as the most dangerous country in Western Europe.
Ignore the statistics for lot of third world countries - they are probably ignoring massive numbers of crimes.
@ Gaga:
Inter-nation crime rates do not compare. The USA crime rates are largely compiled from FBI statistics based on ARRESTS. UK statistics are largely based on CONVICTIONS. It's total apples to oranges.
UK and Australian crime stats are thus seen by most of us as fictions at best, outright lies at worst. Most nations' political rulers go to great lengths to hide any statistics that shed a less favorable light on their regimes.
In conclusion: basing arguments about gun law relationship to crime using national crime statistics is tantamount to basing an assessment of the USSR under Stalin on statistics published in Pravda at the time.
GaGa said...
"Hold on there, thats bull." about my statistics, but failed to quote her own sources.
GaGa wants to make the statistics say what she wants by excluding all those pesky EU countries that don't meet up to her standards since they're "second world nations".
GaGa is also mixing apples and oranges by comparing the USA, which has 300 million privately owned weapons to countries that don't let it's citizens own pen knives, much less firearms, by comparing "murder rates by firearms". Duh, if they can't get firearms, they'll kill with whatever they can get their hands on (but she doesn't count those "non-firearm murders).
GaGa is manipulating statistics, pro-socialist, anti-gun, but posting on a survival blog? ... GaGa is a Troll.
gaga is also posting grade A bullsh*t about Miranda.
England and Australia both have laws that pre-date Miranda...BUT...both can use your *right to silence* as an inference of guilt, ESPECIALLY when legal defense for the crime is offered at trial. "If you were innocent, why did you not tell the police what happened at the time they arrested you?"
In the USA, once you invoke your right to shut up and ask for a lawyer, they have to stop questioning you. In Canada, and other countries, they do not.
Gaga...what sort of self defense weapons do you own? How is your food storage going? What do you have in your BOB?
How many times did you vote for Obama in the presidential election? How long have you worked for ACORN.....
David said...
"Inter-nation crime rates do not compare. The USA crime rates are largely compiled from FBI statistics based on ARRESTS. UK statistics are largely based on CONVICTIONS. It's total apples to oranges."
I never mentioned either, we are taking about murders, I doubt any first or second world countries fake those figures. Besides, why count arrests? - its meaningless.
Jack said...
"Duh, if they can't get firearms, they'll kill with whatever they can get their hands on (but she doesn't count those "non-firearm murders)."
I included the general murder statistics as well as just gun murders. US have 2-6 times the murder rate per capita of Western European countries. Crime rates in former communist countries are a different issue because giving EU membership doesn't affect the fact they are ex-communist (second world) countries with large amounts of Russian mafia involvement.
Jack said...
"GaGa is manipulating statistics, pro-socialist, anti-gun, but posting on a survival blog? ... GaGa is a Troll."
Ga-Ga is a boy; don’t confuse me with a pop singer who took her name from a 26 year old song
So your definition of a 'Survivalist' is Right Wing and gun-loving? Well, I could be pro- socialist but I'm also pro-gun and in the process of getting my hunting license in Poland where I live.
I think you should realize that guns in Europe are not a political issue; nether is survivalism as it’s basically the same process as self-sufficiency and completely compatible with tree-hugging liberals.
One thing the Ferfal makes clear about the situation in Argentina quite clear is that the tradition end of the world, 'Mad-Max, live in your fortress and shoot anyone who comes near' scenario is completely unrealistic. 4
You have to live in the world as it presented to you; it maybe be very true that in the America's you have a large amount of weapons and a danger of bad guys using them for petty crime or worse, but in Europe guns are rare and ammunition even more so for criminals. Knives are far more of an issue, but even so the biggest danger to me is not crime but economic issues.
When Argentina crashed, its middle class have moved into poverty. That is the must important issue that this site addresses - how to survive an economic crash.
My personal strategy was to buy a farm and marry a Polish girl whose father (as an incidental to getting married) is a Forest ranger and huntsman who is in control of 20 sq km of woodland. I only need a gun to hunt; my neighbours for 10km around are all self sufficient farmers themselves and unlikely to come hunting in packs.
So by all means, justify your attitude to guns but stick to the situation in your country. In the UK for instance, few criminal have access to guns ammunition and certainly its impossible to get training. A SHTF situation is not going to change that.
I find it really funny that GaGa's homeland (Poland @ #20) has a higher murder rate than the U.S. (@ #23), but GaGa still wants to talk b.s. about how violent the U.S. is!
GaGa follows by talking about Argentina, the EU, the UK, and the US, and then has the audacity to say "So by all means, justify your attitude to guns but stick to the situation in your country".
So, GaGa, you should also stick to your country - Poland, or in your own words a more murderous, ex-communist, Russian mafia controlled, second world country. Damn, that sounds like a country where you're going to need a gun! lol
Statistics are from nationmaster.com
"So, GaGa, you should also stick to your country - Poland, or in your own words a more murderous, ex-communist, Russian mafia controlled, second world country."
I was born in the UK and lived there for the first 46 years of my life - living in Poland for 5 months doesn't make it my homeland.
I'm not saying the US is violent (although relatively its is), simply that you have to evaluate risk. In the UK I am 1000 times more likely to die in a car crash than gun crime; thats because even in a country with the almost the safest roads in the world, car transports is incredibly dangerous.
Getting on topic, do you need a gun to defend yourself when the SHTF? Probably definitely in the US and obviously in Chile but probably definitely NOT in western Europe, simple becuase there aren't many criminals with weapons.
Gaga said:
"Getting on topic, do you need a gun to defend yourself when the SHTF? Probably definitely in the US and obviously in Chile but probably definitely NOT in western Europe, simple becuase there aren't many criminals with weapons."
Knives, clubs and even rocks can and have been used as weapons. I guess they'll have all those banned in the UK and western Europe before too long, as well.
That being said...if the proverbial feces hits the oscillating device, I think you will find some (not all) people will become less men and more beasts. It happens in every crisis situation...New Orleans during Katrina, Haiti since the earthquake,after the Indonesian tsunami in 2004 there were reports of criminal activity, every natural disaster has brought the *beast* out in a certain segment of the population. Not a lot of guns in Haiti--so they attack with machetes.
Whether it s a *slow collapse* or a sudden *SHTF* situation, there will be social unrest REGARDLESS of where one lives. People will NOT suddenly join arms and sing Kumbya!
Yes, the *beast* will be in the streets, the country roads, the cities, the country....One may be lucky and rarely encounter that sort of person, but when the SHTF the chances that one WILL go up exponentially.
I intend to be able to defend myself and my loved ones.
Firearms are an effective tool for doing so and also the knowledge that people may be armed will be a deterrent to some of the violent types that may be roaming the streets. Predators prefer EASY prey. The lion does not attack the strongest water buffalo or zebra in the herd. The lion looks for the lame, the weak, the undefended.
Two-legged predators are the same. They want the easy target. The undefended target.
Criminals WILL find firearms, even in Western Europe. And most will know where to find them.
In a societal collapse do you think criminals in London will say "Oh, lets NOT go down to the now abandoned police station and scavenge for guns and ammo." ?
Yes, the criminal element will find weapons...guns, grenades, whatever they need/want/desire.
The question is now:
Do you care enough for your own life and that of your loved ones to be prepared to protect them?
"do you think criminals in London will say "Oh, lets NOT go down to the now abandoned police station and scavenge for guns and ammo." ?"
What guns? Police in the UK are not armed. There are armed response units, but suggesting that un-armed criminals will take on the Police is pushing it, don't you think? Maybe they will disarm the army and use their weapons, eh?
I agree that anything can be used as a weapon but as the US proves, allow guns legally and the criminals will be as armed, if not better armed than the rest of the population.
There is also the issue of what sort of calamity would hit Europe. Hurricanes? nope (although a few hit UK, damage is minor)
Earthquakes - virtually impossible.
Tsunami/asteroid hit/Supervolcano - well maybe once every million years or so.
Economic disaster is probable/likely. But the world is going through the worst economic crash since the 1930's and there is no hint of the slightest civil unrest.
OK, GaGa, I stand corrected:
"I find it really funny that THE LAND GaGa CALLS HOME (Poland @ #20) has a higher murder rate than the U.S. (@ #23), but GaGa still wants to talk b.s. about how violent the U.S. is!"
I also lived in the EU as an adult (for 9 years) and I know for a fact that a lot of people there have guns, mostly illegally (I personally owned several unregistered firearms when I lived there). And the former Eastern Block Countries are known for having the most weapons and criminal activity. Not only that, Europe has 1000's of years of history of war, agression, occupation, and ethnic cleansing, and you are sitting in the middle of it. So to say that you won't need a gun after SHTF is naive at best, ignorant at worst.
So, "Getting on topic", the question Ferfal posted was "Better country than USA Challenge", and I don't think any EU country would meet that challenge, certainly not Poland or the UK.
For what it's worth, I feel much freer in most countries in Asia than I do in the USSA. Granted, this is partly because foreigners are treated differently than citizens in many places. It is true, though, that gun laws are better in the US.
As this post is about a "better country than the US", I would say, why not use the PT classic of three flags? Have a citizenship in one country, assets in another, and live in a third. If you live in a country that doesn't consider you their property, you are in better shape than just about anywhere in the Western world.
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