Posts
Banks and Currency dealers Export the Gold they can no longer sell in Argentina
The Argentine government has banned the saving in foreign currency some time ago. Like in Venezuela, if you are authorized to buy foreign currency because you’re traveling abroad it will only be authorized right before the flight and only minimum amounts, a couple hundred bucks or so. Once your back, the government will check how much money you spent, how much you have left (remember, you´re not supposed to “save” dollars anymore) and will check your credit card expenses which have been taxed with an extra 15%in the last few days.
Remember those debates about gold being a currency or not? Well, that debate is settled for the Argentine government: Yes, it is a currency. No, you cannot buy it unless you travel to a country that uses it. You may be wondering “But no country uses gold as currency….” Ok, so you cant buy it then. Genius. This is how they explain the new ban, given that after the USD ban people ran to gold to protect themselves, the sale of gold going up 400%. Little by little, they have closed all loopholes and windows.
So yes my friends, you’re banned from buying gold in Argentina now. If you’re over there, I hope you bought it while you could. When it all finally goes to hell in a blood-soaking basket you may be glad you had some set aside.
FerFAL
39 comments:
You reminded me the '80s when Pole tourists visited my village (in Northern Greece) and they were selling sheets, flashlights, thermos, anything you could imagine to the locals (Greeks), because their (then) communist government prohibited them to carry money or exchange, except tiny amounts.
And they were the happy ones. Hard communist regimes like those in Bulgaria or Albania prohibed foreign travel to all of their citizens except high rank party cadres.
1) Don't think of it as a gold ban --think of it as a Kirchner jobs program for unemployed smugglers. heh heh
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lfcastro/15709909/
And evidently you can wander into Paraguay from Argentina almost by accident.
http://www.bootsnall.com/articles/07-01/accidental-people-smuggling-in-paraguay-paraguay-south-america.html
Plus there is that very long border with a 75 foot wide creek as the major geographical obstacle.
Did they also ban silver?
You are a genius for leaving when you did. :-) Very few times do people make the kind of decision you did with the correct timing. Your preparedness, experience, and situational awareness allowed you to do so. Take note people. This is how its done. Congratulations. I feel sorry for the rest, however.
Sorry if this is an obvious question, but how do they handle jewelry sales? Can people no longer buy and sell gold jewelry? If they can still purchase jewelry, then what's to stop people from trading gold rings instead of gold coins?
I've often speculated that they could do something similar here in the States. Under the guise of combating terrorist, stopping counterfeiters or just to "make sure those evil rich aren't hiding their filthy wealth", simply make it punishable by law for any business to accept payment in anything other then electronic transfer - debit/credit/EBT. I work with a lot of tech-geeks who actually think that would be a great thing - "Man, no more having to carry cash or losing change...."
It's all in the marketing. :|
What is your view of coin collections? Are they as easy to sell as precious metals? Certain pennies can fetch hundreds and thousands and can easily be walked out of the country in your loose change.
Since nobody can actually use gold, this makes gold a horrible 'investment'.
Not sure why you think people should have bought this "when they could". Rather, they should have avoided gold altogether.
You have to get rid of gold for it to be useful. This is now much more limited in Argentina then before. What comes next could be fixing the price, or banning the sale (exchange) altogether.
Americans have the same problem -- they must exchange their gold for dollars in order to buy anything. The exchange must be timed correctly (to make a alleged "profit"), must still be legal, must be where and with someone who will do it (harder to do then many think), and after all that, you're still buying the things you needed all along at the higher inflated price.
Avoid gold altogether makes far more sense. Same with silver. Both of these precious metals have no usefulness in reality, they will always need to be exchanged for what is considered "money" (fiat but still used as money).
Finally, digital (computerized) money will never "go away" as oft believed. Nor will fiat money or fractional reserve banking, we're wedded to this indefinitely because it gives the controllers too much power over everything / everybody else. They will never relinquish this power.
So the notion that gold will "protect" you is ridiculous. In the past, computerized systems did not exist, but they do now and they're not going to just disappear.
Gold can be outlawed, devalued, confiscated or prohibited at the drop of a hat. Which means anybody that is relying upon this as their 'investment' is a fool.
Hard assest that can actually be used (land, food, ammo, resources) are far better, which the value of almost always goes up. In a collapse, they will certainly go up, because this is what is really needed.
Nobody "needs" gold or silver, it's just a store of value to get stuff you really "do need".
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/realestate/argentines-turn-cash-into-condos-in-miami.html?
Did Argentina ever ban buying gold before? This seems worse than in the past.
@Anonymous
In the short term yes you are right, in the practical day to day yes you are right. but if you really want to shift ( and I use that word specifically) money easily then PM are the way. you might get globbered with a poor exchange rate but people 'know' gold so are more will to accept it. An shifting thousands of dollars in gold is physically easier than thousands of dollars in ammo, land etc.
I also believe that most people are want to sit on money for a long period of time 10,20-50 years in the hope that the system chances for the better again PM is ideal for this but so is land.....
Its about balance.
@Anonymous at 10:45 2012/09/14
You say silver and gold have no uses in reality. That's complete bunk. Even aside from their long-standing (i.e., several millennia) history of being used as money, they do have industrial uses. Silver, in particular, is a very frequently used industrial metal (see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver#Applications). Gold also has its uses (it was once frequently used in electrical contacts in advanced electronics and is still used in spacecraft), but is used less frequently due to its high price.
You make some other good points about other things being more important. That's true, but they all take up a lot more space, and there is a limit to how much food, ammo, guns, etc. you actually *need* (even if you include barter). Once you have enough of that other stuff (which can also be taxed or confiscated just as easily, by the way!), what else are you going to do with your fiat currency which is being devalued every second by the Fed and the ECB who are printing dollars and euros nonstop? Gold and silver are much better suited to store your excess wealth. As you correctly pointed out, they are not an 'investment'; they are a store of value. Yes, you lose some money when you buy and sell them (it's unavoidable -- that's how the precious metal dealers make a living, after all), but what you gain is something that is compact, portable, and cannot be replicated at the press of a button (i.e., fiat currency).
Re Anon at 10:45 AM:
"digital (computerized) money will never "go away" as oft believed"
1) Ever hear of something called a High Altitude Electromagnetic Pulse (HEMP)?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/congress/2004_r/04-07-22emp.pdf
2) You don't use gold in Argentina -- you use gold to get out of Argentina and to have a store of money that you can use to set up a new life in a new country.
3) The goverment can EASILY seize ALL of your "digital money" with a computer command -- it can't seize secret hidden gold hordes.
4) Even green fiat cash is not safe if the shit really hits the fan. During the Cold War, the US Government had huge pallets of red dollars stored in the Federal Reserve bunker in Culpeper Virginia.
The idea being to declare green cash worthless by government order (thereby bankrupting everyone) and gain control of the economy by issuing red money. WHich would be required for payment of taxes. You can't have a massive slave labor force to reconstitute if you can't control the slaves.
Having USDA databases of the major food/grain storage warehouses --and having the military seize same -- would help.
As would military curfews on highway travel. NRA can't assemble a scrappy band of paramilitary rebels if any pickup on the road gets blown to hell as soon as it pulls onto the highway.
@Anon
When you wake up in the morning - is the first word you say perhaps: Määääähhh?
Your words are solid proof that Gold/Silver are a must have.
Why?
1) You write store of value: YES exactly, that it is. Paper currencies loose value over time, you know. Gold keeps its purchasing power.
2) "They will never relinquish this power."
TRUE but you are missing the "unless they have to" part.
Goverment is not god. Goverments like the ancient roman empire once too believed their time would never end - they all crumble when their time comes.
If you buy gold you go "short goverment" basicly - the higher the value of gold, the weaker the goverments power.
Following this logic goverment power was at its peak back in 2000 and has fallen considerably ever since.
Patriot act and DHS are all signs of weakness. When you are untouchable, you do not need this kind of protection, or do you?
3) Last but not least you can move gold around. Store it overseas so it is beyond the reach of goverment.
Look at FerFal's situation - what good would 5000 acres in argentina do to him, compared to a stash of 1oz gold coins in a deposit box in say vienna or london? Hm?
Clarification to my 11:19 Am remark on Sept 15:
The measures that the US Government took during the Cold War were to be executed in the event of a major nuclear attack by the Soviets.
The huge store of red dollars, plans to commandeer private resources like food supplies and plans for travel bans were drawn up so that the economy could be rebuilt after the attack -- and to ensure the continuity of government.
Which is why the Mad Max scenarios put out by some survivalists are unrealistic.
There are already the equivalent of gang leaders and warlords in charge in the USA. As the response to the trival attack on Sept 11, 2001 showed, their grip will get tighter, not looser, in the event of catastrophe.
Having computerized control of a citizen's money --hence, control of what a person needs to live -- is just one hammer in the toolbox.
In 270 AD - a time of turmoil in the Roman Empire -- someone buried a pot of silver coins. Dig it up 1700 years later and it's worth
$225,000:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/9161483/Hoard-of-30000-silver-Roman-coins-discovered-in-Bath.html
So how well is that fiat currency holding up?
Finally, those of you that think "government is going to disappear / vaporize / go away" are truly stupid.
THAT has NEVER happened and it never will. Something will fill any "vacuum" that comes. And the control of money / banking / fiat / fractional reserve / digital will be their FIRST priority.
Guess what they will do?
They will outlaw all forms of currency / cash / metals that they cannot control.
If you still need primer in basic economics, understand that this is because control people comes through controlling their money, access to resources and ensuring that plenty of this flows through their own hands to support their power.
What is happening in Argentina right now is an example of this. The government is not "going away", simply consolidating their control.
This will happen in ANY collapsing scenario / country.
And should by some magical means "all go away", gold and silver will be doubly useless then, good for nothing but sinkers and bullets.
Gold and silver are ONLY valuable / worth something NOW -- so you'd better fucking hope no collapse occurs if you bought into deception.
Has there ever been a civilization/culture where good old fashioned gold was worthless? Sure, governments have said "Oh no, you can't use gold!" but I'm willing to bet the border guards would gladly take some gold and let you cross.
It's all fine and good to hypothesize about how PM's will be valueless, but hypotheses need to be backed up by something other than speculation before they are taken seriously. Is there such evidence? I've never heard of any (though I'm not a goldbug so I'm not that tuned into that gossip network).
I do not deny that gold will increase as an asset. I am a former stock market guy who see's the "Tar Baby" it now is, along with the entire world wide balance sheet. My problem with moving much of my wealth into gold is such.....
If the American economy collapses, it will be by design, as a new alternative will be waiting to come forth and save the day, as Lincolns Greenback did to the US economy in 1863. This new currency, will be most certainly digital. Already Europe has much more sophisticated tracking of currency movement than in the US. So my question is....
After the change of power, how will you get your wealth back into the system, where it will be usable to your family? A gold coin will be the equivalent of selling a house "off-line". I am a CPA, I could find you.
Like the guy mentioned, some guy a thousand years ago buried gold. Chances are he watched his children starve, knowing his buried gold was not an option to save them.
I see people invest in gold with the intent of continuing their life after the ????? But therein lies the problem.
Aren't we talking about PMs being a means to an end they are ONE of many useful tools. They maybe transient or have longevity.
Lets say we go digital( BTW great point on how we get our assets back into the system - a massive topic on its own). Isn't all this prep about having what we need but I would also extend that to what people want. A good example of this is the black market drugs, guns, sex, powdered tiger willies the list is endless. How is this bought on the street? Cash (which is so profitable that even government help to launder money and bring it back into the system) or TVs or watches or iphones. So Cash and Gold may help you score some dope to trade for fuel ? People are at the heart of live. All this needs thinking of on different levels and time scales within different scenarios. Ultimately it will come down human interactions to get stuff done so therefore think more personabley.
On a different note maybe that dude just forget where he buried his stash?
Very good comments. The North Korean govt a few years ago experimented with allowing it's people to engage in limited forms of capitalism, then changed the money, i.e., to "red bills" and allowed only a small amount of the old cash to be exchanged, essentially confiscating the value of the old money.
The govt can only confiscate what it can find, therefore frequently buy small amounts of silver and be quiet about it. Gold can be easily hidden and taken out of the country if necessary.
This and other monetary questions are often discussed at the Kitco.com forums; many of us are regulars at both places. I will link this post there.
Life in Argentina getting even harder:
PayPal suspended for inland transactions!
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19605499
Anon at 10:06 on Sept 16 said "After the change of power, how will you get your wealth back into the system, where it will be usable to your family? A gold coin will be the equivalent of selling a house "off-line". I am a CPA, I could find you."
------------
1) No you couldn't. Did you find Milt Romney's Cayman accounts? :)
2) Re putting money back into the digital system, do like the Mob and buy a pizza business. Why do you think you see so many people sitting around at gun shows with worthless crap on the tables that no one is buying?
More money? --buy a casino. If you ready need to launder a big load, hire some docile idiot to set up a bank and "run" it for you. It's only a rented office suite, after all.
3) A quote from the highest tier of law enforcement fighting money laundering-- the G7's Financial Action Task Force:
"Using 1998 statistics, these percentages would indicate that money laundering ranged between USD 590 billion and USD 1.5 trillion. At the time, the lower figure was roughly equivalent to the value of the total output of an economy the size of Spain.
However, the above estimates should be treated with caution. They are intended to give an estimate of the magnitude of money laundering. Due to the illegal nature of the transactions, precise statistics are not available and it is therefore impossible to produce a definitive estimate of the amount of money that is globally laundered every year. The FATF therefore does not publish any figures in this regard."
http://www.fatf-gafi.org/pages/faq/moneylaundering/
"All your money bits are belong to us"
http://www.customsandinternationaltradelaw.com/2011/01/articles/department-of-homeland-securit-1/bank-accounts-and-seizure-warrants/
"Avoid gold altogether makes far more sense. Same with silver. Both of these precious metals have no usefulness in reality, they will always need to be exchanged for what is considered "money" (fiat but still used as money)"
A dumber comment I have never heard. Why must Gold be exchanged for Fiat? Ever here of something called "BARTER" where Metal is directly exchanged of roods and services? This is the way it was before th eroding bankers introduced Fiayt $$$. Why must FIAT $$ act as an intermediary to purchase goods?
"it's just a store of value to get stuff you really "do need"."
Glad you wrote that last bit. It shows how stupidly you contradict yourself and clearly don't understand jack.
Events are changing rather quickly now !
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Many argue that gold will be useless when your hungry.
But I believe there will be a point which gold soars so high & is so hard to obtain that you'll be able to buy a farm with a couple ounces.
Precious-Metal-Investment.blogspot.co.uk
lot of foriegn mainly US Canadian
owed gold/silver mines in Arg,whats happening to them,can they export?,can they import mining equipment and spares? ?
2.04 am GMT
@Fernando Aguirre
Please can you confirm the below as reported by James Savarin ?
---- Snip Begins ----
URL:http://www.themodernsurvivalist.com/archives/2350#comments
James Savarin says:
September 23, 2012 at 6:36 am
I live in Argentina. It’s not that you can’t buy gold, you cannot buy more than 100 grs per day, per person, and you have to demonstrate the source of the fiat you are using to buy it.
---- Snip Ends ----
.
Hi Guest, well that's the point. First, find a bank selling gold today in Argentina. You wont find any. Second, same like USD, you have to be authorized to buy gold. They just deny that request. Go cry a river. AS of today, the argentine government denies a ban on USD, but that's exactly what's going on, any when it comes down to it, you wont be allowed to buy them. Its amazing, but the Argentine government does lie. :)
For the person who talked of Gold as an investment and said that the people are fools for that, is only half right , in the fact that they should not invest in Gold or Silver. You should know your History a little better or the subject more before you waste your time telling someone else who does not know either. Gold as well as Silver will always remain. It can't be destroyed and it is limited. This is the very reason people are buying. The fact that it's value is relative, and alone it can not be reproduce. The Fiat money can and subsequently de-valued as morals decline so will economies/Governments. This is the very reason Governments of the world will call on these metals when all goes hell breaks. When faith is lost in the paper, people who were prudent and bought some Gold or Silver,for a hedge or safey/refuge will look like geniuses, not "fools". The Bible states,
"MY PEOPLE PERISH ALL DAY LONG FOR LACK OF KNOWLEGDE". So you better get studying. HO don't get mad at me, for giving you knowledge, for you would be the fool. The Bible states "THE FOOL DESPISES KNOWLEGDE". So receive your wisdom today and be glad.
Technically, gold, silver and platinum American Eagle coins are legal tender in the U.S. at face value.
The true value of gold and silver won't change too much, however if purchased prior to the dollar losing a ton of its own value (inevitable) then that gold and silver can pay off a whole lotta debt.
Considering the inevitanle collapsed of the U.S.A. economy ,where will you run if you owe any gold?.
Considering the inevitanle collapsed of the U.S.A. economy ,where will you run if you owe any gold?.
Well, it is true that we do not trade with gold so I guess the ban of it will not affect much. People who buy gold for the sake of keeping it in storage like a hobby or recreational/decorative purposes, could just visit other cities or countries to fulfill their needs. However, I do wonder if the gold commerce in Argentina is being greatly affected by the ban maybe because of their unique tastes and designs in gold.
so, if you had $100M in USD stuck in a bank in Argentina, who would you go to who could use that cache of $$ as collateral to trade?
So...and considering all of this, if you had $10M on deposit in an Argentine bank, who would you go to who might help you leverage that $$ so that you could trade in-country?
Post a Comment