Friday, September 24, 2010

Gunfight video: Why you need H2H skills too.

So here we have lots of good lessons.
1)       Pepper spray is used: Better than nothing but as this case shows, an angry, determined aggressor (specially one used to receiving physical punishment in fights) may not stop.
2)       The cop just can’t keep up with a bigger, stronger, more experienced fighter. He has no chance in hell. But he was well trained, he uses a hand create distance, draws and shoots as you are trained in CQC.
3)       But he does a mistake: He only shoots twice, the first time he actually misses! (that’s a lesson there for the I’ll never miss commandos)  and the second time he hits him in the abdomen. What he should have done is shoot several rounds, rotating upward, “closing the zipper” as its sometimes called. Notice he says “wow, I already shot him once. What is going to take to stop him?” No, no, no. NEVER expect to stop anyone with just once shot, or two for that matter. Fully expect to not see any results at all after shooting the bad guy, and keep shooting until the bad guy goes down.
4)       The gun jams as it often happens when shooting while fighting at contact range.
5)       The boxer takes away the gun from the cop, but its jammed and wont fire! Incredible, the armed cop is just about to get killed by the unarmed bad guy. This happens a lot. Around 10% of cops that get shot, get shot with their own weapons. Had the boxer known how to clear the gun (anyone with moderate training can clear that type of stop in a semi auto in less than a second) the cop would have been shot with his own gun.
6)       Had this boxer had any CQC training, he would have known exactly how to stop the weaker officer from even drawing his firearm in the first place But this man is a prize fighter, he didn’t take into consideration the weapon. This is a good example of why sport fighting alone isn’t enough for self defense, you need to take into account weapons, and someone that just focuses on H2H will not see this. In this case, a fighting knife would have been even better than the gun. With some training, the officer would have been able to cut this man up in several places before the fighter even realized that a knife had been brought into the fight. An adequate fighting knife would have been all but impossible to take away from the officer.
7)       … are you sure about carrying that little 22LR after watching this?



Don Williams said...

1) The cop made his major mistake when he lost control of the situation.

Which was several hours earlier -- when he reported to work that morning.

2) You can't police an area with one man. You always need a partner standing 12 feet back ready to fire while you approach closer to a suspect.

3) The only way one policeman can work is if he is given authority by the community to draw his gun whenever he pulls someone over and to shoot them if they don't obey his every order.

4) In this case, the deputy could have stayed in his car and waited for backup -- or at least ordered the suspect to stay in the car until backup arrived.

Anonymous said...

This is one of the few situations where tasering would have been appropriate.

My list of mistakes:

1: A pistol is not a blunt-force weapon. You've picked the gun up again. He is advancing slowly. There was plenty of time to clear the jam or to abandon the weapon and go for a long gun in the trunk (there is a shotgun or rifle in the car, right?). If nothing else, find a stick and make some distance. Instead, you close and try to hit him with it.

1b. A gun is not a club. It works by going bang and accelerating lead objects. Use it that way or not at all.

Pick it up and keep it away from the bad guy, but if it won't shoot, move on.

2. Where's the pointy object? If you're grappling, put something in an eye and get away from him. A pocket knife or keys are better than nothing here.

3. Why are you (the cop) letting him take control? You're obviously not a brawler. He has a dominant advantage in brawling. Keep a car between him and you until you can clear the pistol or your backup arrives.

I am a fighting idiot, and I can see the mistakes. He thought he was hot stuff with a shield, and he almost got it fed to him.

Anonymous said...

I realize this blog entry is about fighting skills, and I also acknowledge my bias against law enforcement, since, from personal experience and careful observation,I have come to see them as a more dangerous threat to life and freedom than common gangs. That said, are there some lessons here regarding prudent interaction between police and citizens. Although this individual police officer may have been a decent guy, why did he immediately pull the driver from the vehicle, force him onto the hood, and attempt to search his person, as though he were automatically guilty of some heinous crime? Wasn't this supposed to a stop for a speeding violation? Just asking.

Jason Black

FerFAL said...

Because he's speeding, and given that the guy tried to kill him, his instincts where correct in seeing him as a dangerous criminal.
"I have come to see them as a more dangerous threat to life and freedom than common gangs."
Please try thinking before posting things like these.


DaShui said...

AMigo Mio,

Almost exactly the same thing happened in my city. Semi-professional boxer vs. motorcycle cop. Cop gets off one shot to the torso with a 40mm Glock before it jams. Boxer mounts the Cop beating him while a large crowd of natives looks on, doing nothing. Disabled guy with a neck brace in a nearby auto parts store rescues the cop with a Sig .45. He shoots the boxer 2 times with Federal Hydroshocks, no effect. He then goes for the head shot, knocking the boxer down, who still tries to get up to fight, but then expires.
Both cases I think unrealistic training is to blame, training partners submitting too quick and easy.

Anonymous said...

It's possible the arrest attempt was unlawful?

How do we know the officer wasn't lying about the speeding? Such things happen all too frequently these days it seems.

Knowing H2H might be useful in order to defend ones self from an unlawful arrest.

Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest

“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306.


The question many might be asking after viewing this is, what could the boxer have done differently to improve his odds of defending himself?

FerFAL said...

I wouldn't resist arrest in USA, but if that floats your boat then do the you vs. police force thing. Good luck with that.


Greg in CA said...

The cop did fairly well, once the trouble started, considering the size difference.

That thug had the cop on the ground & had a large size advantage, but didn't finish it.

Boxing doesn't give grappling skills.

Joseph said...


If you want to resist an illegal arrest, do it in a courtroom. Resisting arrest on the street is going to get you killed.

Anonymous said...

"Cop gets off one shot to the torso with a 40mm Glock before it jams"

You'd think something that threw a projectile nearly 1.6 inches in diameter would've been more effective with even a single hit to the torso...

(tongue firmly planted in cheek ;^)

Rourke said...

I am not sure howw much grappling training would have helped the officer.

I think what hee needed was a backup - Taser or secondary pistol.

I would like to know what caliber he used to shoot the guy.

Overall - he did ok as he saved his hide. Obviously could have done better.


Anonymous said...

Well, hold on just a minute. From the comments it's hard to see if this is the same blog that highlights the dangers from impostor cops and corrupt cops. Are you all suggesting a person should hop into the backseat of a corrupt or impostor cop's car and be happy?

Is everyone here ignorant of what went on in the U.S. during the 1960's Civil Rights era, or the destination of Argentina's, "Disappeared"?

Far too many people never make it to the jail cell, or to the court room to plead their case, both then and now.

What if this was a video of the cop in the Southwest U.S. who was a serial rapist abducting a woman? Would you still say, but if that floats your boat then do the you vs. police force thing. Good luck with that? What if you were a witness to such a crime, would you just watch and doing nothing while saying, it's none of my business?

Perhaps you all haven't noticed, It Is Official: The US Is a Police State


Anonymous said...

The pepper spray probably slowed him down and help the officer just enough. I didn't get impression that the boxer was truly enraged and took a more professional approach, hence the officier's comment that escalation only seem to make the boxer even more pissed off. Good thing the boxer wasn't really pissed from the 'get go'.

Most folks believe a gun shoots a magic laser beam of death. Great example and one I'll not forget. My H2H is non existent so when possible I should handle a situation very much like a small female and not like a fit and well muscled individual believes they can. Better safe and sorry. I've witnessed an enraged, natural and practiced H2H fighter in action. It was humbling. He was unstoppable. A

Anonymous said...

Wow, this is a fantastic video and learning experience.

My comments:

Carry a second gun!

Carry a knife that is easy to retain. Just notice him getting hit in the face and falling, a knife can easily slip from the fingers. That's why I would not think of carrying something that doesn't have a finger hole in it. Like the Hideaway knife, or Karambit style knife.

Also just look at the enraged dude, criminals are often used to pain and fights and might even be on drugs. Slashing for a bleed off would have taken too much time (15+min) and probably only enraged him further. Instead the tendons and muscles near the knee and arms would served the officer well here and inhibited his movement severely. Going for the eyes and forehead to blind them. And heavy stab punches in nerve centers like the groin and area between the ribs in the stomach, would also have stunned them severely. Enabling the police officer to outrun him, it's hard to sprint when you can barely see or and are missing some muscle or tendons in a leg. And avoided slashing their throat and neck. Something that would have without issue killed him.

But I think of all things this video proves the necessity of some H2H skills in fighting. A person like that boxer could easily have been brought down with a choke hold. Which is as easy as pie to pull off. Also look at the officer, always on the defensive. That's what happens when you have no confidence or knowledge of H2H combat. An aggressive close range attack with elbows, headbutts and groin attacks would have enabled the officer to take the initiative. More deadly moves such as attacks to the neck aren't even necessary here, since your in control of the situation. It hasn't become desperate and deadly, knowing how to fight could not only save your life but theirs also.

Unknown said...

Many officers in areas that aren't known for violence only rude one officer to a car. My town recently had an officer shot for the first time since 1892. I don't know where this video was filmed, but it might be an area like my town.

I think a more "survival minded" view of resisting arrest is that the consequences of resisting an unlawful arrest (even if you win the fight) will still be much more costly than being arrested and suing them later (even if you lose). It is kind of like the old adage "nobody wins a knife fight," because you just won't win (unless you have a genuine reason to think the cop is trying to kill you/your family).

This is similar to how it is a better idea to throw your wallet to a robber rather than shooting him. Even if justified, you might have to spend thousands of dollars and months of your time whereas you could have just given him a wallet with $50 and some fake credit cards.

Can you imagine how much it would suck to shoot a 40mm anything without a mount?

Maldek said...

The cop had the chance to run away. He should have done so.

@anon + FerFal response #1:
It is only in a few 1st world countries, where people consider the police as actual "helping hand".

The bigger part of the word, sees the police as "club" the ruling class uses to enforce their agenda.

If you have to work for your living, you are not part of the elite. Think about what it means.

PS: I personaly know a lot nice people from my time in the military and many nice people in LEO from Kung-fu training.
I dont say police/military are the bad guys...they simply get paid for a certain job and more often than not it is not the "helping hand".

FerFAL said...

"From the comments it's hard to see if this is the same blog that highlights the dangers from impostor cops and corrupt cops. Are you all suggesting a person should hop into the backseat of a corrupt or impostor cop's car and be happy?"
It is the same blog but you have to use your head. One thing is "cops" throwing you in the back seat of a Falcon at 1 Am in the morning in Argentina during the 70's, and another is resisting arrest after a cop had to chased you for God knows how long speeding.
I'd say that in USA, unless the situation looks "very" suspicious, adn sepcailly when you MAY have doen something to piss the cop, your best choice isn't resisting arrest. Camino Negro, 2 AM here in Buenos Aires and some unidentified vehicle claming to be cops asks me to pull over, no thanks.


Anonymous said...

I think that the cop behaved right.

A few things to note :
* the guy was stopped for a misdemeanor, so the cop didnt' expect those violent reactions. And yes, law enforcement would have quite a lot of problems if they started aiming at voters with guns while stopping a car for a speed ticket
* the cop was pretty quick to react. He tried the pepper spray, then gun, without loosing his mind while soaking heavy punches. I severely doubt most people (cops included) would have the readiness to react properly to such an ambush
* was the pepper spray still "fresh"? An unused peper spray will loose strength with time.
* the boxer seems to have wanked too much, because he definitely lacked power. I would have expected such a confrontation to have a cop knocked out cold in 2 punches
* I don't understand why the thug stopped chasing the cop and let him escape (after he tried to shoot him with the jammed gun). Was it the effect of pepper+bullet in the belly ?
* Was the reason of this fight known ? Cause avoiding a speed ticket usually isn't worth risking your life in a fight vs an armed opponent

Anonymous said...

Lots of "armchair commandos" here.

It's one thing to train and all that... been there, done that for decades, but it's a whole other s-show to be involved in gun and knife fights.

It ain't fun. Natural ability helps. Killer instinct helps. It's hard to keep cool when someone is armed and seeking to hurt you.

Think survival, people, just think survival. NOt sure how many times FerFAL can say it - SURVIVE out there.

parabarbarian said...

Wilson had psychiatric problems and was off his medication.

The gun was reportedly a .40 Glock. Ok gun but definitely not much use as a club. OTOH, cops are not expected to pistol whip civilians.

Anonymous said...

The vast majority of the cops in the USA are decent and hard working.

We should be thankful. We are much more fortunate than most people in other countries, where the cops are so underpaid and are not honest.

The police force in my city in Calif is very hard working.