Thursday, December 30, 2010

Firearms Setup

Ferfal,

Sorry to hear about your recent power outtage!  Luckily, you are well prepared for such scenarios - I know people who literally wouldn't know where a flashlight was in their house if power went out.  I am a fairly new reader of your blog, and have recently purchased and read your book.  It has been very valuable for my family and I and our preparedness will be at a much higher level because of it.  Thank you  Glad to see you're moving to Texas.  The United States certainly has its problems, and the political direction we're heading in is downright frightening, but it's still not anywhere near to the level of your descriptions of Argentina, so Texas should be a pleasant change for you and your family.

I'd like to talk to you sometime about doing some consulting on a film project of mine.  I'm a filmmaker, and am in the process of selling my first feature film and preparing my second.  The first film was a horror picture, and the one I'm preparing now is the true story of an incredible escape from a Soviet prison camp after World War II.  It's based on a book that we now have the publishing rights to, as well.  But after this, I'm looking to do a picture based on some sort of societal collapse - only more along the lines that you describe, and not so much full on into the Mad Max type scenario.  I think the Mad Max/"Road"/"Book of Eli" vision of post-apocalypse is fun, but it's also fairly standard by now, while the real life versions of such things are just not represented well on film.  It's hole that might be interesting to fill.

I also have a couple of questions for you, as a person new to firearms(I've recently bought a Glock 19 and a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 because of your book!)

1.  I've been looking at a .22 conversion kit for the Glock, because it could save quite a bit on cost of ammo and training.  However, how viable is this as a training tool?  It seems that the vast difference in recoil and feel of the weapon might get you into bad habits.  Would it be better to just eat the higher cost 
of ammo or learn to reload, or is there a real benefit to training with a .22 conversion system that I'm not seeing?  Is it worth training with something that's not the real thing?  Or should I just opt for a stand-alone .22 pistol?

2.  I'm also looking to get an AK-47.  My budget is about $500, give or take a little bit, as I just want something fairly cheap right now to fill the "no rifle" hole that I have in my battery currently.  Will spring for a FAL or something along those lines later.  I have three choices near my price range, and was wondering which one you'd advise I pick.  As I'm new to this, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything, and I think you'd have a much better eye for this, so I'd really appreciate your advice:

http://www.armslist.com/posts/77843/little-rock-arkansas-rifles-for-sale-ak47-high-quality-not-romanian--ammo--bonus
I've spoken to this guy and have him down to $600.  Think I could get him down to $550.  He's only a couple of hours away so I could pick it up myself.  Scope is mounted on the dust cover on this one - I know that doesn't hold zero, so that's not worth much.  Also am interested in getting a side-folder, so that will be an additional cost...
http://www.armslist.com/posts/80376/ohio-rifles-for-sale-ak-47-mak-90-762-x-39
This one comes with a rail system and a red dot.  Think I can get him down to $565 with FTF, but have to work out the shipping, etc. as he's farther.  Rails allow mounting of scope on top without losing zero.  Comes with red dot scope.  Again, no side-folder here, and not sure if it would be legal to add it without adding a bunch of new American stuff to comply with the law - not sure.

Then there's this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=207897348
This was made by Century Arms, and I know that's very hit or miss.  Sometimes you can get a really lose mag well, or you can get canted sights.  Sometimes they're great.  You just never know.  This has the side folder, though, and if I can snag this at auction for $400 or so it may just be worth the risk.

Anything here I should be looking for?  Which would you pick?

Again, thank you very much for your blog and your book - I look forward to reading more, and perhaps having you consult on my upcoming film in a year or so, if you're interested.

Thanks again,
D.
Hi D, thanks for your email!
Sounds like your work is lots of fun. Oh yes, couldn’t agree with you more. Though I like Mad Max type movies, it would be nice to see something more realistic for a change. Seems that its either Mad Max / Book of Eli type (excellent movie by the way) or complete wimp getting caught during a disaster and the guy hasn’t got a pocket knife, not even a Swiss army knife, let alone a multitool, a simple keychain LEDt, or God forbid, an evil gun. And if there’s a gun the guy is either Bruce Willis diehard hero or again, clueless dude and the lesson of the movie is that guns just makes things worse. I’d sure like to watch a SHTF movie with a person that has some basic firearms training along with common sense for a change.
Regarding your questions:

  1. Your Glock 19 is an excellent weapon. Know that 90% of people worth listening to will recommend you some type of Glock (often 19 or 17) and carry one themselves. Is the standard by which other guns are measured.  New guns coming up they all look to replicate what the Glock already does. The 22LR conversion kits are a good idea for cheap training and it is possible to some level once you find a load that works well in your conversion kit. Having said that, for defensive gun classes, I’d invest in proper ammo to make the most of it. 9mm is cheap enough if you buy bulk online. Some of the most serious shooters, they either reload or buy bulk when they find good deals. This is what I would do and you do save money as well as keep a nice supply of ammo at hand. Too bad they don’t sell bulk ammo like that in my country. Depending on how much you shoot and enjoy it, people end up buying a 22LR for cheap plinking. 22LR is also a practical utilitarian round for pests, plinking, as a trail gun or for killing livestock.
  2. You can get a WASR10 and 1000 rounds of ammo for $500 at J&G sales.  If you want something sturdier, get the Yugoslavian underfolder If you end up shooting a lot, 5.45 ammo is cheaper and you might want to get a Polish Tantal. These are cheap and ammo is cheaper than 7.62 as well. I prefer 7.62 though for defensive purposes. With soft point ammo expect it to perform like a 30-30 out of a lever action carbine. These would be better options than the ones you’re checking.
As for optics, I’d learn to run the AK as is. Later if you want to add one, go for a simple Red Dot scope, forward mounted in  a foregrip rail.

In terms of guns, you’d be pretty well set with your Glock 19 and one of the AKs.
Of course you'll need at least 7 mags, but AK mags are cheap. A vest or shoulder bag to carry them and the rest of your gear. A messenger bag can be fitted with some other emergecny gear to make it a bug out bag or survival kit.
Take care D!

FerFAL

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

D,

Don't go for an AK side folder. THEY RATTLE - A LOT. Consider instead the Romanian Draco AK-47 pistol. CAI swaps out the trigger group with a Tapco trigger group, but other than that it's a Cugir Factory fresh AK-47 pistol. The best part? RIGHT NOW J&G has a sale on them and they ARE in stock. FOR $300. Ok, you will then need a few magazines if you don't already have some. And realize this is your 100 yard OR UNDER gun. An AMD-65 muzzle brake tames this pistols muzzle rise very well, though I'm pretty sure any other AK-47 muzzle brake would also do the job. I just happen to like the look of the AMD-65 brake.

I have drilled and tapped the end of my Draco and put a sling swivel in place. I can mount numerous sling systems from the back sling swivel and the front attachment point.

As this IS a 'under 100 yard' gun I generally don't put optics on those. But to each his own. The iron sights work great AND you could just purchase more ammo for practicing rather than attempting to rely on optics or electronics to guide your bullets (FRONT SITE IS VITAL - so to speak). They make a GREAT TRUCK GUN.

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/romanian-ak-draco-pistol-7-62x39-caliber-handgun-/products_id/1696

I recommend the Glock 22 instead of the Glock 19. If you have to shoot 9mm, pick up a Glock 17 barrel and a couple of Glock 17 mags and your Glock 22 will then shoot both .40 AND 9mm with the change of barrel and mags. You can get the Glock 17 mags for about $21 each at CDNN Investments online - they average one magazine sale every three months. So stock up when that happens. http://www.cdnninvestments.com/glock.html

And you can buy the barrel for right at $100 last time I checked with 'Ed's Public Safety' in Smyrna,GA. They get seconds from Glock occasionally. http://www.edspublicsafety.com/

If you want even more versatility, pick up a Glock 31 barrel and you can then use .357 Sig ammo by a simple barrel swap. That's the three main LEO calibers - .40, .357 sig, 9mm - all from one pistol. IF you want.

Double Tapper said...

I can suggest an arsenal and accompanying gear that will cost approximately $2k. Sounds like a lot doesn't it? Well it is. $2k is nothing to sneeze about. But it delivers as good of firepower as you can legally own without going Class III. Price out the peace of mind too - once are proficient with the weapons of your choice - some sort of modern pistol and a QUALITY AK platform, you are good to go.

Back when ammo was cheap ($80 US for a 1,000 round case of Wolf 7.62x39) my friends and I would go out to an outdoor range and expend CASES of the stuff. We shot paper targets, shit that just floated onto the range and balloons at 100 yards to simulate head shots or other shots to a small visible portion of a goblin's body. Our reasoning is that in a real fight against real foes, they are going to use cover and concealment as much as you are. You may only have fraction of a second to observe the target, get your sight on the target (we train with iron but this is where red dots really come in) and fire.

Things to avoid - don't get some shitty RomAK. A good custom-built AK will set you back $1k US, but what you have is the ultimate urban combat weapon - absolute reliability in all conditions and circumstances, a good trigger package (a TAPCO replacement is like glass), properly aligned sights (misaligned a real problem with el-cheapo AKs), rail potential for mounting modern optics, synthetic furniture which aids ergonomics and accuracy, and a properly installed gas system. While you are at it, get a good muzzle brake/flash suppressor. Bayonet lug is optional, though AK bayonets are pretty useful. Get some Bulgarian thermo-plastic Waffle Mags - they are lighter and durable as hell. pick up a .30 cal bore snake, some Hoppe's Solvent, a can of Breakfree and a can of Carb cleaner and you are good to go. Get a cheap shoulder bag to carry all this in plus a few extra mags. (More to follow)

Double Tapper said...

(Continued) What all this adds up to is a platform that is useful to around 300 yards for man-sized varmints but that really comes into its own between 25-15 yards. Mine will shoot around 1 moa at 100 yards. That is good enough for me.

You may want a folding stock. Many varieties exist but come in two basic flavors - an underfolder and a side folder. The underfolder is not as sturdy as the side folder, does not lock up as tight, but is VERY compact, which is what I am looking for in a folder. When the underfolder is folded, you basically have a large pistol that is VERY concealable. Couple that with a 16-inch barrel and you have the best legal firearm for concealment allowed in the US.

With an AK, you will NOT get AR accuracy (but it possesses plenty of battlefield accuracy), nor will you get the AR's fabulous ergonomics. What you will get is a .30 cal platform that will do if you can.

As far as pistols, well, they are intensely personal items, like your underwear. Everyone has their own opinion, some based on fact and some based on bullshit. I own and have shot many pistols. What I settled on was a Ruger P-89 in 9mm as my go to war gun. With good 124 grn +p HP ammo (which has racked up an approximate 90% one shot stop in real life shootings), and a 15-round mag, the thing is walking death. Utterly reliable and comfortable when you replace the shitty factory grip with an aftermarket grip, it may cost you $400. You will need a good holster. I use a Galco Shoulder Holster Jackass rig (like the Miami Vice rig Crockett wore)with a double mag holder which means I am packing 46 rounds of Golden Saber Goodness wherever I go. Your choices will of course vary, but I KNOW mine is foolproof and will work under ANY circumstances. I regularly hit the 8-inch metal gong a the range at 100-yards with this set up (only I use 115 FMJ rounds because they are cheaper to practice with).

The above weapons shoot ammo that, while not cheap (no ammo is any more), is considerably cheaper than their alternatives - 9mm is still the cheapest major pistol caliber rounds and the same goes for the 7.62x39. So you can do a lot of practicing with this equipment.

You will need a knife and flashlight too. Some people like the Surefire and their knockoffs. I like them too. I also use a good ol 3 D cell Maglite too. I am not a big LED fan. You may be, that is ok. There are thousands of knives and designs. All I can say on this one is a good clip point model made with good steel with a 6" blade is fine. You may want to carry a multi-tool too, but in the heat of combat you won't need it. You are most likely only going to need your rifle or pistol and one mag (this is in the USA, not Argie where things may be different. FERFAL paints a picture that is pretty grim, but I know some people living down there with no weaponry. Not for me, but they do it). If they get past your rifle, they have to get past your pistol, if they get past your pistol, they have to get by your knife and then they have to get by your teeth. If you train, they will never make it past your rifle.

Finally, I recommend a Level II kevlar vest. Will is stop everything? No. But the statistics (go to the FBI and ATF websites) indicate that you will be confronted mainly by thugs with pistols and the occassional shotgun or rifle. That Level II vest will stop the VAST majority of street bullets. Up until relatively recently, my contacts at our local LEO told me, based on forensics, that most shootings happen at very close range (drug deals gone bad) with a cheap .380 fired directly into the chest or the head. Since you are not a drug dealer, you won't (shouldn't) have that particular problem. A vest is a must have IMHO.

Cost Breakdown

Quality AK - $1,000
P-89 or equiv - $400
Vest - $200
Accessories - $400
Optic (optional) add $500 (no cheap shit allowed)

Hope this helps. Ask, I am around.

Double Tapper said...

What all this adds up to is a platform that is useful to around 300 yards for man-sized varmints but that really comes into its own between 25-15 yards. Mine will shoot around 1 moa at 100 yards. That is good enough for me.

You may want a folding stock. Many varieties exist but come in two basic flavors - an underfolder and a side folder. The underfolder is not as sturdy as the side folder, does not lock up as tight, but is VERY compact, which is what I am looking for in a folder. When the underfolder is folded, you basically have a large pistol that is VERY concealable. Couple that with a 16-inch barrel and you have the best legal firearm for concealment allowed in the US.

With an AK, you will NOT get AR accuracy (but it possesses plenty of battlefield accuracy), nor will you get the AR's fabulous ergonomics. What you will get is a .30 cal platform that will do if you can.

As far as pistols, well, they are intensely personal items, like your underwear. Everyone has their own opinion, some based on fact and some based on bullshit. I own and have shot many pistols. What I settled on was a Ruger P-89 in 9mm as my go to war gun. With good 124 grn +p HP ammo (which has racked up an approximate 90% one shot stop in real life shootings), and a 15-round mag, the thing is walking death. Utterly reliable and comfortable when you replace the shitty factory grip with an aftermarket grip, it may cost you $400. You will need a good holster. I use a Galco Shoulder Holster Jackass rig (like the Miami Vice rig Crockett wore)with a double mag holder which means I am packing 46 rounds of Golden Saber Goodness wherever I go. Your choices will of course vary, but I KNOW mine is foolproof and will work under ANY circumstances. I regularly hit the 8-inch metal gong a the range at 100-yards with this set up (only I use 115 FMJ rounds because they are cheaper to practice with). (continued)

Double Tapper said...

(continued) The above weapons shoot ammo that, while not cheap (no ammo is any more), is considerably cheaper than their alternatives - 9mm is still the cheapest major pistol caliber rounds and the same goes for the 7.62x39. So you can do a lot of practicing with this equipment.

You will need a knife and flashlight too. Some people like the Surefire and their knockoffs. I like them too. I also use a good ol 3 D cell Maglite too. I am not a big LED fan. You may be, that is ok. There are thousands of knives and designs. All I can say on this one is a good clip point model made with good steel with a 6" blade is fine. You may want to carry a multi-tool too, but in the heat of combat you won't need it. You are most likely only going to need your rifle or pistol and one mag (this is in the USA, not Argie where things may be different. FERFAL paints a picture that is pretty grim, but I know some people living down there with no weaponry. Not for me, but they do it). If they get past your rifle, they have to get past your pistol, if they get past your pistol, they have to get by your knife and then they have to get by your teeth. If you train, they will never make it past your rifle.

Finally, I recommend a Level II kevlar vest. Will is stop everything? No. But the statistics (go to the FBI and ATF websites) indicate that you will be confronted mainly by thugs with pistols and the occassional shotgun or rifle. That Level II vest will stop the VAST majority of street bullets. Up until relatively recently, my contacts at our local LEO told me, based on forensics, that most shootings happen at very close range (drug deals gone bad) with a cheap .380 fired directly into the chest or the head. Since you are not a drug dealer, you won't (shouldn't) have that particular problem. A vest is a must have IMHO.

Cost Breakdown

Quality AK - $1,000
P-89 or equiv - $400
Vest - $200
Accessories - $400
Optic (optional) add $500 (no cheap shit allowed)

Hope this helps. Ask, I am around.

Joshua222 said...

You're moving to Texas?

Don Williams said...

1) Charleton Heston made the survival movie back in the day -- The Omega Man.

Charleton says you need to keep that new generator fueled up , Ferfal, or the zombies will come climbing in through your second story windows. heh heh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-MosmUseSY (See around time 1:45 into the video clip)

2) Note the Swedish K submachine gun -- favored by the CIA in Vietnam around the time this movie was made. (1971)

Nolan said...

I recently went to a gun range down near Houston to sight in a new rifle and to squeeze off a few handgun rounds just for giggles. I was (and am) amazed at how bad most of the people shot while standing in a shooting stance and shooting at squares of paper. If you are one of the people who has never been taught how to shoot, then find somebody to teach you. I figure if you can't shoot with consistency when you're not under pressure it'll be worse when you are. For me, this basic paper shooting exercise is where the .22 ammo gets used. Learning and reinforcing the basics so that they just happen (and keep happening).

If you're already good at punching holes in paper, then take a good close quarter combat course. It's amazing that people (or at least I) don't even know how much we don't know. Your software here is a lot more important than the specifics of your hardware. Glock makes an excellent gun, as does Springfield, Ruger, and others. Most weapons I've seen are a lot better shots than the people shooting them.

So...learn how to shoot, learn how to defend yourself, and pick any of the reputable weapons around in the 9mm or above power range. I prefer the new Springfield XDM, but it is hard to find fault with a Glock.

The most important thing is to learn how to use the tools. Just like any kind of training you need to find a good instructor and then do what he/she says. It's possible to learn yourself using books...but I've seen an incredible number of terrible shooters that result from that route.

russell1200 said...

I just don't understand the attraction of a semi-auto carbine? If you really want the 7.62x39 round, the SKS seem to be the cheaper product. It would also be a semi.

If you want a carbine I would consider a 30-30 lever action. If I remember correctly it is a bit of a bear (but not impossible) to mount a scope. It can be had for well within your price range.

With your budget, I would consider a .308 (7.62x 52 Nato) bolt action with a decent scope. You can get both for $500. Then find a target range and practice. If at some point you want to go to a battle rifle/ FAL configuration you can use the bolt action as your back up.

One important consideration is that within the US the 30-30 carbines, and bolt action .308s are so common as general purpose, and deer hunting rifles that law enforcement is not going to freak out if they come see you with them. You can also join (where present) your local rifle club and nobody is going to think your choice of weapons is odd. A friend of mine recently bought a ..308 bolt action with scope at a sporting goods store for an amount within your budget: he has other weapons, but felt that the common ammunition type and simplicity made it an excellent backup piece.

In the United States the police have gone to the Glock 22 firing the .40 Smith and Wesson round. The 9mm round was perceived as being a little light on stopping power, and it has a much bigger magazine than the .45 ACP. You can also get easy conversion kits for .22LR and 9mm to go with it.

fitpro said...

I have two AKs, both equipped with EOTech Holographic sights. One AK is a 7.62 Polish Underfolder and the other is a side folding (no rattles) 5.45 Polish Tantal. I bought an AK through Classic Arms that was a Century build and had problems. The customer service at Classic Arms was exceptional and they replaced the weapon immediately. I would start out with a 7.62 AK. Good Luck! BTW, I carry a Glock 19.

Anonymous said...

I've held an AK with the Tapco side-folder as seen on the Gun Broker AK you linked to. It had some flex and a slight wobble to it, but i have no idea of its durability. I've heard good things about the "wire-folder" stock (which is foreign-made, so check your parts-count balance). You could also get an "ACE" stock as a side-folder, if you're willing to pay.

Depending on your handy-man skills and what tools you already have, a Saiga can inexpensively (or expensively) be made over to its true AK-form without much fuss.

You mentioned having to add US-made parts. This is from § 922(r) from one of Bush the Older's dumber, and anti-economical ideas. Basically, you're allowed no more than 10 relevant, foreign-made parts on a "non-sporting" long-gun, of which the AK has 16. I'm not sure how this applies to the Norinco, since it could have been imported before this rule came about. Because of this, a whole industry of AK "compliance" parts has arisen, so you should have little trouble finding and identifying US-made parts. They are almost always marked as being US-made, however a notable exception would be furniture made by Ironwood Designs.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

A friend of mine got a WASR10 and he's happy with it, although it had a thread-protector welded to the front-sight-base and we had to dremel it free so as to attach a flash-hider. And the stupid bayonet lug was ground off, so he couldn't attach the bayonet he got in Iraq. Actually, he didn't mind this, but i thought it was just wrong.

Anonymous said...

Virtually everyone mas a torch in their pocket - their mobile phone.

Anonymous said...

You're moving to Texas?

Cool!

I think if I weren't a proud California native (just gotta get our so-called conservatives to stop being such whining cowards) I'd live in Texas, the "hlll country" is supposed to be super nice.

hsu said...

While you are preparing for future, don't forget that you living in the present. Because of that, I would...

1. Get your concealed carry license, and then get the Florida or Utah version in addition to the one for your own state.

That will let you carry concealed in about 35 or 40 states (it's been a while since I've counted it up).

2. Get a concealed carry rig.

Lots of people here have mentioned carry rigs that would literally cost you an hour each and every day while you explain to the cops that you are legally licensed to carry. Stuff like shoulder rigs are just that obvious, even to non-shooters, and especially to kids.

You'll pretty much be resigned to an inside the waistband holster (the most popular method) or a specialty method, for really deep concealment, like a smartcarry (a holster worn under your pants) or an undercover shirt (a holster sewn into an under shirt).

Concealed carry rigs are basically personal preference type things, and how deep you need to conceal depends a lot on your situation (like what state you live in, and what type of work you do).

3. Carry, carry, carry.

It takes practice to carry concealed well, and you'll go through several methods of carry, and several holsters before you find something that fits you, so start now.

Plus, you need to learn new things, like how to use the restroom without letting your firearm show, and even how to sit so that your rig doesn't dig into you.

The biggest and baddest firearm in the world doesn't do you a lick of good, if you don't have it on you when you need it. Get used to carrying.

Give my situation, I have to leave my preferred setup, a G22 on an outside the waistband holster with 2 spare magazines (what I use to shoot IPSC and IPDA), and go with an undercover shirt and a S&W42. It sucks, but my situation calls for deep concealment. Chances are, you'll have to makes some compromises too (albeit, probably not as severely as mine were).

Rey said...

Wow, you cant tell what the big deal is with semi auto rifles? Hmmm , I guess that almost 100 years of warfare all over the world and hundreds of millions of dollars (and rubles, deutchmarks, etc.) were just totally wasted. Why oh why didn't they just get a lever action 30.30?

The reason that armies use semi automatic (and select fire) rifles is because unlike Hollywood, in real life it is rare for a single bullet hit to incapacitate or kill your target. A dangerous armed target tends to remain dangerous until you actually hit the central nervous system or cause enough blood loss to cause shock and death.
So, if your intention is to shot a deer at 75 yards and track it for 200-300 yard to finish him off with a buck knife, by all means go with a lever action. If your intention is to kill your adversary before he can kill you, get there firstest with the mostes. So endeth the sermon.

corvidae said...

Is the escape story "The Long Walk"? Where they walked from a prison camp at Lake Biakal in Siberia across the Gobi desert and the Hindu Kush to India? An absolutely incredible story- seldom hear of it these days.

Anonymous said...

I'd avoid the Yugo underfolder, especially if you want something rugged. yes, it's made of thicker metal, which makes it heavier. It may be more sturdy, but in a survival situation, weight kills, and regular AKs are plenty strong.

The MAJOR problem I've heard about with the Yugos is that they leak gas, making cycling difficult. For you guys who think I'm talking about gasoline, I am not. I'm talking about the gas generated by the ignition of the gunpowder when you fire a bullet. This gas is used by the weapon to cycle the next round.

The Yugos have the ability to launch grenades if you have a special attachment (and special grenades, of course). This is basically useless to you and I. The problem is that there is a switch on the gun that lets you activate the grenade launch attachment (sold separately) by diverting gas from the cycling mechanism to the grenade launch attachment. That switch can leak gas over time as the seal wears out and can leak enough so that your semi auto becomes a single-shot and you will have to manually chamber each round.

I'd stay away from the Yugos. Just my opinion.

Scott in Tennessee

russell1200 said...

Rey,

The issue is with under-powered carbines, not full sized rifles. The main reason I would suggest the 30-30 is common ammunition everywhwere in the US. Mybe you can get the 7.62x31 now, but we are in an age abundance now.

Rey said...

Rusell,all things been equal, carbine length is whatever the law says it is, so lets just ignore carbine size for a second. The 7.62 x 39 round is a more effective man killer at under 200 yards than the 30-30. The 7.62 x 39 round is widely available all over the world, including the US. You might want to argue that more people own 7.62 x 51 (308) and 30-30 rifles than 7.62 x 39. I am sure that is the case. But it also means more owners of those rifles looking for those rounds. In a case of scarcity, .308 and 30-30 will disappear from the shelves first, since they are not typical prepper cartridges. Those of us who run AKMs and ARs tend to pre-store our ammo.
So, efficiency, 7.62 x 39 wins
availability, 7.62 x 39 wins
cost per round, 7.62 x 39 wins

30-30 has its place. Violent confrontation with those that would seek to end your life is not it.

Pitt said...

Use what works for you. I agree with Russell1200 about the police being less alarmed by a levergun, that is why I'm purchasing one as truck gun asap. However if licks are going to get passed, I agree Rey: "If your intention is to kill your adversary before he can kill you, get there firstest with the mostes."

So for me, its a well set up AK that has been taken out, run hard and vetted to work. 6 to 10 reliable mags to feed that heifer and a reliable 9mm pistol (5mags please) as back up. My current fave is the Ruger SR9. It has replaced my Glocks as my EDC pistol.

A good combat folder or better yet a compact fixed blade like the BM Nimravus covers just about all the bases.

Now go train. Run. Spar. Shoot. Its your ass on the line. Carry what you trust.

Double Tapper said...

Cops are alarmed by any and all guns. Courts don't care - the action is either legal or not. Should, God forbid, you have to shoot someone, if it is not a "good shoot" you are in a world of trouble regardless of the platform. Shot is shot and dead is dead.