Monday, April 5, 2010

Gun registration + riots = gun grab ?‏

Hi Fernando,

You strongly advocate gun ownership for self-defense. My concern here in France is about gun registration : only side-by-side and over/under shotguns, and black powder weapons aren't registered (since the 2005 riots, 22LR rifles must be registered). For instance, I could own a Glock 17 but that would mean being on THE list. You must count on the thinly spread police forces for your security. No CCW allowed.

What happen if the policemen knock at our door and ask for our guns during or after riots ? A totalitarian government (whose acts might be the cause of the riots) could leave us naked to defend ourselves. Katrina-like...

What are Argentina's gun laws concerning registration ? Do you fear an hypothetical gun grab ?

I'd wish we had a "2nd Amendment" in my country but we don't. When the French people overthrew and executed their king in 1793, they got themselves a Declaration of Human's and Citizen's Rights where one could read :
"Article 27 - May any individual usurping the sovereignty [of the French people] be instantly killed by the free men."
Of course, this article disappeared from the following versions of the declaration :-D

Bye,
Etienne

Hi Etienne,

Yes, I strongly advocate responsible gun ownership for self defense because I've seen how being armed when you need it, combined with good awareness and proper defensive shooting training, it can indeed save your life.

Its serious business because if there's no other choice you have to be ready to stop the threat any way you can, dealing with the moral and legal consequences.
There's been more than enough cases where the bad guy's friends and family kept harassing and attacking the family, forcing them to move out.
Something similar happens when the "bad guys" gunned down turned out to be cops or ex LEOs making a few bucks on the side. Unfortunately, it happens often in South America.

You have to accept this as a possibility, its not just making up your mind about not having a problem regarding shooting someone in self defense. The legal and economical problems are usually greater than the moral dilemma.

I believe that you can fix everything except death and/or a ruined family by rape, torture or other kind of abuses. Those things will destroy you and your family and there’s no going back in time to change things, the rest can be solved.
Money can be earned again, you move and settle somewhere else, but at least the family is ok.

You are right about the possibility of a "gun grab". That's why its a pretty good idea to have guns that don’t have a paper trail going back to you if you can do it legally. I believe it can be done in the States with face to face purchases from individual owners in some states. Do some research to be sure. That would be ideal because that way, at least that firearm isn't listed if they come knocking.

For countries or states where that's not possible, there's still things you can do.
For example you can decide to go on "vacations" often to your hunting cabin, weekend home or maybe some friend's house when you see the possibility or hear rumors of gun confiscations. Its not illegal to visit grandpa at the other side of the State as far as I know.
Of course this is all theoretical, and its not that hard to track someone down but when these operations are enforced in such a large scale, they mostly settle for the ones that are home and have no other option than to give their guns up.
Some people burry a handgun and a few boxes of ammo in buckets caches for such a scenario. Of course the gun buried shouldn't have any paper trail.

In your case, I'd get a couple extra short barreled shotguns " coach guns" for self defense under the radar. Given the political context in Europe, I'd buy a couple extra coach guns NOW (Stoeger Iga makes good cheap coach guns last time I checked) and burry them with several boxes of ammo, pellet, buckshot and slugs. Worst case scenario, IF LEGAL IN YOUR COUNTRY (not legal in France as far as I know) , you can cut down the barrel in one of them, and have a "coach gun" shotgun and a double barrel handgun a la Mad Max. Not pretty, not accurate, but a gun that somewhat conceals and can be used for short range self defense none the less. Again, far from ideal compared to modern auto pistols or revolvers, but much better than none at all.

This may all sound paranoid and far fetched, and it is far fetched thinking it could happen all over USA, but you can't deny that it has happened not that long ago, during Katrina, when people needed to defend themselves the most form looters.

Being in a list or not, the priority for me is having the tool to defend yourself.
Being on a list sure is a disadvantage, but its even worse to be unarmed.


FerFAL

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

"Responsible gun ownership." You're kiddin' ain't you?

"Quo custodiet, ipso custodes." Forgive my Latin, I don't live in Rome.

Mountain rifleman

FerFAL said...

No, not kidding. People that own guns should be responsible, if you can't assume it, its better to accept it and not get one. Its not a toy.

Sorry, no idea about the Latin stuff.

FerFAL

Mr.B said...

THen again, you could, of course, have had those legally registered firearms stolen in the break in that saw your home invaded and some of your possessions taken, including the aforementioned firearms.

Too bad the guys who broke into your home were never caught, because they left no clues.....

Django said...

I believe "Quo custodiet, ipso custodes" translates into English as: "Who watches the watchers?"...Just an FYI.

Anonymous said...

Who cares if you are on "The List"?

Here in America we have gun registration even with our 2A.

So what? Bad guys, that being gang bangers or corrupt cops, usually choose weak (defenseless) targets.

If they knock on your door asking for guns, what guns?

If they try taking by force then you do what you gotta do. . .

totalinvestor said...

quis custodiet ipsos custodes? means "Who will guard the guards themselves?"

Commonly associated with Plato who in the Republic poses this question. Usually translated less literally, as "Who watches the watchmen?"

I think he meant to say "if you are your own policeman, who will police you?"
Oh well, you can't convince everyone.

Anonymous said...

Juvenal's question to his King while Juvenal strummed his mandolin - Who guards the guards (the guard guarding the Kings harem had a smile on his face); who watches the watchers; who polices the police; who is the custodian of the custodians. Who controls the responsible definers?

It is good, Sir, that you know who is responsible and that you define it in your world. I'm glad that I don't live in your world and have to live under your decrees (decree, a religious ordinance enacted by council or titular head.)
Mountain rifleman

Anonymous said...

Could sling-shots be any good for self-defense?

Probably not, it would be like a rubber-band gun that projects ink pens?
Those French really do seem to be at the mercy of criminals and their government... or do I repeat myself?

Mike Wilson said...

"Who watches the watchers." I believe Anonymous took your phrasing as support for a certain political viewpoint.

Etienne said...

I found some coach guns on the net but no Stoeger Iga in France. The best deal seems to be Baïkal's IJ43 20" barrel which sells at 375€ (new). Sounds like we have a winner here.

Those French really do seem to be at the mercy of criminals and their government... or do I repeat myself?
We go out in the street and demonstrate :-)
"El pueblo, unido, jamas sera vencido !"
The people united will never be defeated !

We, in France, can freely purchase silencers for our guns, like we would buy ice creams, ain't it nice ?

Anonymous said...

More likely than a gun grab, which would be very messy given the amount of armed US citizens, is a simple "epidemic" of swine flu, caused by the vaccinations. Easy to do, and then, "I'm from the govm't and I'm here to help you". Resistance will only lead to a massive media campaign against "right-wing terrorists".

It's good for us to learn from past history, good for us to prepare, but perhaps also we should be aware that this current situation has new forms of controlling the population, which were not available before.

America has a different culture from other countries, a very strong, independent streak and will require a different attack mode from those who seek total statism.

I want to keep a courageous, upbeat attitude, but my common sense keeps telling me that this government has the bio-chemical means of easily controlling the population and I just cannot imagine that they will not use it on us if we do not slip qietly into our new third world beggar status.

I want to believe that I am wrong, just haven't been able to feel that upbeat about the prospects...

Anonymous said...

Etienne said...

We go out in the street and demonstrate :-)
"El pueblo, unido, jamas sera vencido !"
The people united will never be defeated !

We, in France, can freely purchase silencers for our guns, like we would buy ice creams, ain't it nice ?

- out in the street,... that's more effort than Americans with full stomaches will do, not hungry enough yet.

That is so cool about the silencers... I wish I could have them for hunting.

Etienne said...

That is so cool about the silencers... I wish I could have them for hunting.
We can use them for shooting at the range but NOT for hunting.

Anonymous said...

What form of Black Powder firearms are allowed in France? It would not be ideal, but I would not feel unarmed with a brace of 1858 remington look a likes in .44 caliber and a similar revolving carbine. Especially if I could obtain the conversion clyinders to be able to use .45 Long Colt ammo if that is also obtainable without license. Let see, a pair of 12 gauge doubles with the shortest legal barrel, 4 .44 cal remingtons with .45 conversion cly and a .44 revolving carbine with conversion cly. I would say that is pretty formable. Also, what about resurrecting pin fire firearms. Their are some nice little reloadable brass for them now.

Lame Wolf

Etienne said...

What form of Black Powder firearms are allowed in France? It would not be ideal, but I would not feel unarmed with a brace of 1858 remington look a likes in .44 caliber and a similar revolving carbine.

You just need to show your ID to buy cap&ball revolvers and rifles.
The cheapest Remington New Army .44 sells for 220€ (steel frame Pietta).
These old fashioned guns killed thousands so it's pretty effective.
I think there's no conversion cylinder available on the French market. Anyways, it would be a legal mess because cartridges+handgun=county authorisation+shooting license...

Let see, a pair of 12 gauge doubles with the shortest legal barrel, 4 .44 cal remingtons with .45 conversion cly and a .44 revolving carbine with conversion cly.

I guess you plan to equip the whole neighbourhood ! :-) I'll go for one shotgun and one revolver. I'm on a tight budget right now. Gotta finance a roof...

pom pom pom said...

A couple months ago, French minister of Interior Brice Hortefeux announced a new law along with "simplification". Any time you hear French administration talking about simplifying its bureaucracy... prepare for worse! No chance that the current government eases the legislation.

It could well be that even blackpowder guns or crossbows become under scrutiny (as already in UK?) Wait for the next violent riot, where young suburbans attack a cop with such weapons and, voilà!

I don't own any gun... yet. But as soon as I can afford it (not a budget priority) I buy a blackpowder gun or a crossbow. Or make a journey to some hunter uncle and suggest he puts me on his will for his shotgun.

As for buying an illegal one (such as a Glock...), I'm not strictly against, but the risk is to be given a bad and dangerous one: cracked inside or beeing used for some murder that would bring you many more problems than solutions. Beware!

BTW, what is the street price in your countries for a black market gun?

Jack said...

Lame Wolf - good comment, especially for people in Europe, NYC, etc.

Etienne could buy the black powder weapons legally and hopefully anonymously in his local area, and then buy the modern cylinders through the internet or while on vacation in the U.S.

As we saw in the WWII movie "Defiance", all you need is one good gun to acquire more.

Jack said...

pom pom pom said... "what is the street price in your countries for a black market gun?"

In some countries, someone selling his legally owned gun to someone else without any paperwork would be considered to be black market. But in the U.S. that is just the normal way buying or selling personally owned weapons. Cash for weapon, no paperwork - totally legal in most states.

In the U.S., the black market would imply a stolen gun. You can get a black market (stolen) gun in the U.S. for less than $100, but no one does it except for criminals.

Guns are so easy to buy legally here for anyone who doesn't have a criminal record there is no incentive to buy stolen guns for the normal person. All guns on the black market are stolen, have serial numbers, and have probably been used in other crimes. When you buy a black market gun in the U.S. you're just buying a lot of problems.

Most gun owners would turn in someone trying to sell a black market (stolen) gun. U.S. gun owners consider gun thieves to be scum of the earth, kind of like horse thieves in the old west.

Now if there were no legal guns, or if they were smuggled guns, we might be more open to black market guns. But since it's so easy here to buy whatever gun we want, why bother with the black market?

Pitt said...

Jack said...

In the U.S., the black market would imply a stolen gun. You can get a black market (stolen) gun in the U.S. for less than $100, but no one does it except for criminals.

Jack, most non-gun people think that every gun in civilian hands has to be registered with the government. Most 'free citizens' think that if you sell a gun without doing paperwork it is a 'black market' gun and hence illegal. American's don't know their rights and are quick to surrender them in the name of being law abiding.

Of course most of these people are 'Yankee' liberals who are used to depending on .gov for everything.

Etienne said...

As we saw in the WWII movie "Defiance", all you need is one good gun to acquire more.

Knife to tank, as gamers use to call it xD.

Even if I have a conversion cylinder, I can't get the rounds without having an authorisation corresponding to a 45 LC handgun, thus it's useless in my case. That's why there is no such conversion cylinder on the French market ;-) no one would purchase it !

Anonymous said...

Those quanities would just be aminimum where I live. Also, it is not so much just having a weapon, it is knowing how to use it. I would suggest participating in some sort of training/club type activity like IDPA or SASS.

Lame Wolf

Kyle said...

Etienne - consider a cartridge conversion cylinder in a chambering easy to get on the black market in France - I am thinking out loud "9x19mm, 9x18mm Makarov, etc."

Or perhaps you can get casings and primers and learn handloading. If I lived in France, I'd do that.