Saturday, December 15, 2012

CT School Shooting: Lets talk Real Gun Control & Responsability


TampaMark said...

Let's talk psych drug control first. Almost every time one of these incidents occur the principle perpetrator was on psych drugs or under the care of a psych who knew better but did nothing. I was in Denver when the Aurora shooting took place and the culprit was on drugs and under care. NPR response,"Oops! Slipped between the cracks." Almost every time they have no prior criminal history. People just don't snap and go on a killing spree, these people are made. The NY Times did an anti-gun article and said it wasn't so, not a link to psych drugs. They never released their database to prove their contention, another link in the chain of falsehoods offered up by the media to push gun control. So let's talk psych drug control first and discount the running dog media.

sherry said...

thank you. I agree.

sherry said...

I agree. Thank you.

Shane and Michelle said...

I agree that most of it has to do with the parents(or lack of) ...although i do feel that rate r movies, gory stuff these days gives sick people ideas.

Shane and Michelle said...

I agree that most of it has to do with the parents(or lack of) ...although i do feel that rate r movies, gory stuff these days gives sick people ideas.

Anonymous said...

I fully agree with you. I was a teacher in public schools and witnessed a lot of free for all fights in one school. All of the bystanders would rush to the fight and cheer them on. When some of the students asked me what it was like when I was in school, I told them that if anyone fought, that person was shunned in effect. They were surprised and said that they would feel ridiculous if they had a fight and no one came. (Maybe that would have stopped the behavior.) There is much to be said about peer pressure that is positive. That positive peer pressure can only be brought about by a community defining what is acceptable or not, and that has much to do with generally accepted mores that are often brought about by the prevalence of religion of some type in a community. All of this movement against anything religious in public and all of this acceptance of any behavior without repercussions in order not to hurt anyone's self esteem is destroying this country. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling some shame when a person has acted shamefully. People are just so afraid not to be politically correct. We were much better off when we said what we thought. Now, everyone is afraid of being sued or attacked by another parent. If kids did not get the idea of what was right and wrong from their parents, they could at least learn some consequences from the community.

Anonymous said...

I'm truly worried about what my government is about to try in regard to gun control. Perhaps you made the better choice in moving to Ireland, Ferfal.

libertyguy said...

Hi Fernando,

I don't think the problem is morals and religion or lack of it. There are plenty of psychopath killers that claimed to be religious at one time or another before killing. Also, remember that morals don't come from religion. The Christian bible talks of murder and slavery among other things which God condones. Also Richard Dawkins, now probably the most famous atheist, threatened to arrest the Pope when visiting Britain for his alleged cover up of sexual abuse in the Catholic church.

I think the real problem is lack of love. If people don't love themselves they probably won't care much for others. That's why I think you're right about family behavior, but also self-responsibility and self-esteem. In another forum I read someone talked about the difference between European culture and America. In America it's about self interest first, family second. In Europe it's family first, and also your ethnic group is like larger family. I think South America is similar to this. Neither culture is wrong, just different. But in the U.S. people are very independent. When you combine that with materialism promoted in U.S. and possible confusion over religious identity, as well as violence in media, and drugs/anti-depressants and/or mental disorder, then when people have nothing to feel good about I think that's a recipe for the mass murders we see.

FerFAL said...

Hi libertyguy,
Yes, arresting the Pope because of child abuse is the kind of stupid sectarian BS some people might say around here, thanksfuly such racists are very few. Most people are very tolerant about freedom of religion.
I have to disagree with you on the lvoe part, I tihnk that only caring about yourslef isnt love, and its in fact what is wrong with the world today: No notion of sacrifice, of commitment, its all me, me, me. Never manning up and takign responsability. People want kids, but they dont want to "make sacrifices" and spend time with them, or if they do its the worng way, making them into selfish individuals as themselves.
Finally, I'll have to disagree about America vs Europe in terms of one materialism. Both are pretty materialistic compared to much poorer countries no doubt, and people in Europe arent exaclty socially involved or really that open and friendly, I find USA to be much more family leaning and friendly than Europe in my experience, especially southern US States are pretty simialr to certain Latin concepts of friendliness, maybe becuase of the latino popualtion. Looking at whats' happening today, this week less than 10 days from Christmas. Its all about buying tons of crap people dont even need, and its so little about spending time with the people you care about. I'm not saying dont buy stuff, but you look around and its such an obssesion as if buying junk is the only thing that matters any more.
About religion and moral values, at least regarding christian values, there is the old and new testament, and Jesus explains a few things about the difference between the two.

libertyguy said...

Hi FerFal,

You misunderstand me. First, I'm the farthest thing from racist you can imagine. In fact I'm black and grew up in America, so people like me probably know more about racism than anyone (except maybe Jews).

Also, I'm not religious, but quite tolerant of religious freedom. My parents are still Christian, and that's how I grew up. I think teaching religion in schools is fine, but people should be free to choose, including not having such instruction. The problem is when one group, religious or not tries to dominate the other. People should be free to choose either way.

As for arresting the Pope I didn't mean to offend you or anyone. I don't know the details surrounding those events except what I heard in the news. There seemed to be abuse going on and Dr. Dawkins was simply making the point nobody is above the law.

As for selfishness I'm no expert, but have been thinking over the philosophy that ALL behavior stems from selfishness. Even if you say you're doing something for someone else it's because you feel good yourself for doing it. I'm still thinking that through.

As for love I didn't mean care only about yourself, I meant love yourself in terms of being happy with who you are. I think the killers didn't have that at all.

FerFAL said...

Hi Libertyguy,
No problem man, it seems you didnt know this (dont worry, a lot of people dont) but there has always been sectarianism and discrimination against Catholics in Britain, some people still feel that way and still discriminate Catholics so that's why people make the kind of comments you mentioned by this person.
You may not be a racsit or discrminate people, but the man you mentioned certainly is, and he asociates with some serious anti catholic hate groups, not unlike the KKK. Again, I get it that you didnt know any of this. About the rest, I do agree about having the right to choose. I think its important though to have some form of moral compass. Its is true that if you dont love yourself you cant love others, though I think today in society we tend to be too self centered and that isnt good.
Take care and see you around!

Anonymous said...

You sound very level headed.I would like to comment on just one part of what you said:

"Also, I'm not religious, but quite tolerant of religious freedom. My parents are still Christian, and that's how I grew up. I think teaching religion in schools is fine, but people should be free to choose, including not having such instruction. The problem is when one group, religious or not tries to dominate the other. People should be free to choose either way."

This is just a thought about "I think teaching religion in schools is fine, but people should be free to choose". I agree religion values should be taught in school. And if the parent does not want religion to be taught to their children then how can the child make an educated choice? Even a nonreligious parent should let the child hear, evaluate and take in their parents opinions and then make a choice. I understand a child may not be able to make the same choice as an adult but I believe "teach a child in the way they should go" and they may not go that way but the thought is placed in the child's head and whether they know it or not they remember and apply what was learned and displayed by the parent.

We will always have a dominate group trying to influence another but as parents we have just as much influence as the dominate group, if we will just take the time and effort to understand what our children are being told and take the time to give them our opinion with facts.


Steve said...

There are several measures to take.

First limit military weapons, although with 3D printing it becomes more and more futile.

Second if your on pyscho tropic drugs you cant have access to firearms

Third, I have to go with more armed civilians in public places. Well vetted garbage men, postal carriers, high school janitors. I am against arming teachers. Teachers should teach not take care of security.

Steve said...

No matter what side of the divide your on, there would be nothing wrong with people having these.

Steve said...

Maybe there is a clear link to prescription drugs?

KeithC said...

@ Steve, I need to disagree about a lot of what you wrote.

1. What are "military weapons"? The .223 caliber is available in all sorts of configurations including "hunting" bolt-actions. The AR15 platform is just a semi-auto rifle, same as .22s. Detachable magazines are nothing new, nor are double-digit capacities. No one has used an actual machinegun, even though - with proper licensing and special taxes - they are available for private ownership in many states in the U.S. Oh - and the first 3D gun made self-destructed after 6 shots. :)

2. I believe those drugs *are* a part of the problem. However, there are many people on them that have not "snapped". I am uneasy about depriving someone who has done nothing wrong of a Constitutional right. If those drugs truly are the cause for psychotic breaks, the drugs need regulation, not the guns. Further, most the guns used in these killings are stolen from relatives and/or earlier victims. Limited legal access would have no effect.

3. Teachers should be armed if they so desire, not to act as security but to have the option of defending themselves or the children under their care from immediate physical danger. This is the same reasoning for concealed carry anywhere. I have a CCW permit and carry nearly everywhere. It does not make me - in thought or in fact - a police or security officer. If a teacher is in a locked-down room with a gunman outside the door, their "defense strategy" is to block the view into the locked room (by hanging paper over the windows) and to keep the children calm and silent. If the gunman enters, their next line of defense is essentially to die gallantly. This is not a plan. Active defense muse be an available option.

It sickens me that we even need to discuss such things but denial isn't a strategy for success either. :\

libertyguy said...

Hi FerFAL,

I think we're talking about two kinds of discrimination, religious and ethnic.

Of course ethnic discrimination is its own topic. As for religious discrimination, yes, I know that exists as well. Ask Muslims about that.

I don't know Dr. Dawkins personally, but I'm very familiar with him. He seems very unlikely to discriminate on ethnicity, but I don't deny he is against religion. He takes the view it's harmful because of the violence, among other things, associated with it historically (e.g. the Middle East, the Christian Crusades, etc.). So he would prefer a world with the veil of religion removed.

I didn't comment to try starting a religious debate. There are plenty of places for that on the Net. I'm far more tolerant of religion than Dr. Dawkins. I only brought his example up to try to show that atheists can be quite moral, which is often a misconception.

Last, we may not agree on religion but other than that I'm with you 100%! I've recommended your blog often. Two more things, great job on your English. It's impressive. Finally, one of my best friends came here from Buenos Aires, so I'm viewing Argentinians more and more favorably ;)

To Anonymous,

I didn't say religion should be taught in school. I said I don't care if it is. In the U.S. there is a push to remove all religion, including prayer, from schools. So religious parents feel persecuted. I think that's wrong. Prayer and religious classes are fine. Just remember the following: ALL religions should be allowed the same school privileges. Such classes or prayer should not be mandatory participation, rather they can happen and people join in voluntarily. Last, don't teach religion as science, because it's not. The two are distinctly different.

To Steve,

Limiting weapons is not the answer. The Second Amendment demands people have the right to bear arms to protect themselves, including against government, which would have that type weapon.

Things like bombs, knives, and even poisons like anthrax or cyanide can cause just as much mass murder. You can't control every deadly method. The problem isn't the tool that's used.

Anonymous said...

If Obama, Dianne Feinstein, and the rest of the liberal left were really interested in stopping these mass murders, they would take a look at the role that mind-altering pharmaceutical drugs play in these incidents. In the vast majority of the mass murders that have occurred in the last decade, the murderer had been using mind-altering pharmaceutical drugs. However, they are really only interested in repealing the Second Amendment of the Constitution and oppressing the American people even more.