Sunday, November 24, 2013

Glock vs 1911: Why Glock is the best gun for you… and everybody else.




Hello Fernando,
  Hope you're doing well in Ireland my friend. 

  I couldn't get my comment to work on the blog so I thought I'd drop a quick note in response to your comment in your M&P post about how people should just save time and "get a Glock" cuz it's the best fighting handgun around. Umm, maybe not. :-)
  I posted a thread on www.whenshtf.com entitled "Why I HATE the Glock" and really stirred things up. Basically  I opined the reason Glucks aren't for everyone is their grip angle closely resembles a length of 2x4 in comfort and their "safety" is on the friggin trigger! 

I know, the mind is the ultimate safety, but maybe John Browning and Gaston Glock both knew people were likely to be dumb with weapons but just came at the problem from two different angles. JMB put active safeties on to keep people from shooting themselves in the ass, GG put a passive safety on so people wouldn't forget to undo them.
If you read Glock; the rise of America's pistol by Paul M. Barrett, it explains that's exactly why GG built the Glock the way it is; he couldn't remember to swip off a safety on a P-38 he carried and figured no one else could either.
So those are the two reasons I love my 1911; grip angle and safeties. Oh and it's much better looking than a Glock.  :-D  No, I don't think they're for everyone, but if someone is willing to learn more about their gun than just which end the bullets come out, I think the 1911 beats Glock, IMHO. 

You get a chance, check out our forum. Lotsa good people and discussions, good info too. I can also recommend a thread I posted "the 1911 is it's own toolbox". Good article on stuff I never knew.
  Have a blessed day, sir!

William

Never send a Glock to do a 1911's job.

......  ............  .......
Hello William,
Thanks for your email. You make some interesting points. They are wrong, but still interesting. Just messing with you, we all have our opinions and I appreciate the debate so thanks for making yours heard. 

A Norinco 1911 was actually the first big bore handgun I ever owned and learned to shoot well. That Norinco was of course perfectly reliable until I put a few $1000 into it, made it ¼”  more accurate at 25 yards and messed its reliability. A few thousand dollars more, including a fancy finish, nice grips and a bunch of very expensive magazines it was almost as reliable as it had been out of the box. My advice definitely is, if your 1911 works well, don’t mess with it! 1911s aren’t Glocks, you cant just drop a part in it and expect it to fit and work. It wont. A lot of tweaking and filing, polishing and buffing is needed to make parts fit and work well.

I believe that the old saying “Beware of the man with only on gun” is true. I learned to shoot that gun well, took my first defensive shooting classes with it.
Eventually I realized that other shooters taking the classes that had twice as much ammo in their magazines clearly had an edge on firepower. I told myself “I’m firing a manly .45, not some puny 9mm!”. Well, there was also the matter about those ugly Glocks being lighter, less prone to failure, more likely to keep working when dropped in the dirt and mud during some of the drills. Eventually I gave up and went first with a Bersa Thunder 9, which I will say was better than trying to keep up with Glocks with my 1911, and finally I got myself a Glock.
Sure, at first the trigger felt like a toy compared to the Chip McCormick trigger I had in my 1911, and the groups at 25 yards spread just a tad, but other than that it was lighter, still very accurate, had more ammo and was easier to reload fast. The 1911 is all I had known, so for months I would still try to disengage a safety on the Glock that wasn’t there anymore. Not a problem, the Glock didn’t seem to mind. 

Eventually I “learned” the Glock just like I had learned the 1911. The grip wasn’t a problem for me, I liked it straight away much better than the 1911 slab feeling and the Glock gen 4 is even better. The Glock pointed more naturally and I appreciated the lower bore axis. My 1911 hadnt been “melted” or dehorned so I also learned to appreciate the lack of sharp edges in the Glock. My hands felt much better after 10 hour long classes and training sessions.
Every now and then someone would show up with a 1911, some more expensive than others but all of them having the same shortcomings I have noticed. They would fail more often, the slight accuracy advantage wouldn’t be noticeable in those guns that may have had it, but the slower reloading and magazine capacity limit sure was.
Up until the Glock showed up, the 1911 was king of the hill. You had some great double action autos already but you could still make a case for the single action 45. But when the Glock came into the picture it marked a clear end of the 1911 era as the king of combat handguns. Everything a 1911 does, there’s a Glock in some caliber, bigger and with more capacity even, that does it just as good or noticeably better.

I’ve taken several men and women to the range for the first time. I cant think of one that didn’t do his or her best with the Glock rather than any other handgun. If we take into account durability, reliability, simplicity, accuracy, capacity, availability of parts and accessories and ease of repair, no other gun beats it and that is why most law enforcement and defensive shooting experts use it.
The 1911 I will keep for my kids when they grow older. It belonged to my father so it has sentimental value as well. But when it comes to a reliable tool for defense, the Glock will be my choice in handguns until something better shows up.
FerFAL

10 comments:

Andreas Winkler said...

William

Why would anyone need more safeties on a gun then a Glock allready has?

Your triggerfinger isnt supposed to be on the trigger unless you are determined to fire.

The Glock wont go bang unless you pull the trigger..... the 1911 wont go bang if you forget to remove the safety and it wont go bang if you have a bad grip on the gun(in a fight for example where a badguy trys to grab your gun).

So what is worse?

Follow the rules of gunhandling and you wont need more safeties then a Glock has.

I also recomend James Yeagers Youtube-Video: "1911´s suck" , he covers a lot of points why a 1911 is an inferior Fighting-Weapon to the Glock


The 12 Golden rules for Safe Gun Handling
1. Always treat the gun as loaded.
2. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
3. Always keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Always keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
5. Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy.
6. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
7. Learn the mechanical and handling characteristics of the gun you are using.
8. Always use proper Ammunition.
9. Be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before loading and shooting.
10. If your gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled, hold your shooting position for several seconds; then with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, carefully unload the gun.
11. Don't rely on the gun's safety to keep it from firing.
12. Be aware of your surroundings when handling guns so you don't trip or lose your balance and accidentally point and/or fire the gun at anyone or anything.

Regards Andreas

Andreas Winkler said...

William

Why would anyone need more safeties on a gun then a Glock allready has?

Your triggerfinger isnt supposed to be on the trigger unless you are determined to fire.

The Glock wont go bang unless you pull the trigger..... the 1911 wont go bang if you forget to remove the safety and it wont go bang if you have a bad grip on the gun(in a fight for example where a badguy trys to grab your gun).

So what is worse?

Follow the rules of gunhandling and you wont need more safeties then a Glock has.

I also recomend James Yeagers Youtube-Video: "1911´s suck" , he covers a lot of points why a 1911 is an inferior Fighting-Weapon to the Glock


The 12 Golden rules for Safe Gun Handling
1. Always treat the gun as loaded.
2. Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
3. Always keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4. Always keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.
5. Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy.
6. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
7. Learn the mechanical and handling characteristics of the gun you are using.
8. Always use proper Ammunition.
9. Be sure the barrel is clear of obstructions before loading and shooting.
10. If your gun fails to fire when the trigger is pulled, hold your shooting position for several seconds; then with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, carefully unload the gun.
11. Don't rely on the gun's safety to keep it from firing.
12. Be aware of your surroundings when handling guns so you don't trip or lose your balance and accidentally point and/or fire the gun at anyone or anything.

Regards Andreas

Don Williams said...

1) The moronic executives at Colt , in my opinion, ruined a good combat pistol when they tightened up 1911 tolerances starting with the Series 70. (I don't care for the firing pin safety in the Series 80 either.)

Pandering to the wannabes who never shot anything other than paper targets, who couldn't shoot
a decent group and who would pay extra for a magic gun would fix their lack of skill.

2) Have a good gunsmith file some looseness into it like Glock has (Google Glock Kaboom) --and like the WWII 1911s had -- and reliability will improve. Plus you might have him cut a notch into the slide rails near the front so the frame has someplace to dump the carbon it pulls off the rails.

Don Williams said...

3) The Glock 45 is an improvement on the 1911 only if you have hands the size of a baseball player's catching mitt.

4) Re Glock action vs single action, IDPA insists on pistol competition that matches real life and they ban use of magic , impractical pistols. They only allow use of concealable firearms that are near stock.

5) If you look at IDPA's rule book

( http://www.idpa.com/compete/rules,
right hand side) you can see that Para 9.6 says a person qualifies as Expert with a Glock 9mm if they clear the course in 110 seconds or less. A person with a 1911 45 is given 1 second longer --111 seconds.

That is not much more time given that multiple shots are fired and the 1911 45 acp has much higher recoil (see para 8.3.1)

In fact, it says that a 1911 shooter can carve out 60% more wound channel volume than a Glock in about the same amount of time.
(Note: volume of wound channel is function of caliber SQUARED. 9mm => 81. 45 acp is 11.4 mm ==>
130. 130/81 = 1.60. Yes, we're talking FMJ here but the greater momentum of the 45 gives similar results for hollow point.

It takes a little over three 9mm shots to equal the wound channel of two 45ACPs. So the Glock 17 would need 110 * 1.6 or 176 secs to create the same wounds that the 1911 created in only 111 seconds.

6) And don't tell me about brain shoots -- the likelihood of hitting the brain in a moving target is close to your chances of winning the lottery.

The 45 stops in a way the idiotic gun magazines haven't heard about yet -- each shot blows two big holes in the perp's lung (entry/exit)-- causing explosive decompression like a tire blowout on the interstate. The 9mm only causes a slow leak --which is why you need 5 or 6 of them.

A 45 double tap with FMJ blows FOUR big holes --two in each lung. Two collapsed lungs pressing on a perp's heart and causing it to start skipping --along with his inability to draw a breath -- gets his attention.

Don Williams said...

"They said" the glock is the equal of the 1911.

Just remember what Mr Rate said:

"The moment you think you've got it figured ... you're wrong."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn60YWO218k

Don Williams said...

1) Re the 1911's "limited magazine", it is limited only if you shoot like a girl --i.e, the Weaver stance. Several decades ago, while visiting a friend
at a pistol range on an army post, I noticed that a tough Army sergeant shot one-handed -- like this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FVXeUlcaL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

It's reasonably accurate if you lock your elbow before firing each round.

2) If you have the next magazine in your left hand beside your right (shooting)
hand, then it only takes a split second to drop magazine 1 and put in magazine 2.

Mel Tappan recommended the "Six Pack" -- six 45 mags. Counting the one in the pistol that's 49 rounds. If you think you are going to fire more than that without being hit or ending the fight, then you are kinda optimistic.

3) Re "something better" the CIA adopted the pistol of the future back in the 1950s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU98uP7pXA8

Anyone want to guess why I argue that?


Jose Garcia said...

Andreas,

Those rules seem straight out of a gun owner’s manual written by lawyers.

Any alleged disadvantages the 1911’s safeties pose are easily overcome with training, which you are supposed to do if you are going to arm yourself.

Pitt said...

Glock or 1911. What matters is, can you shoot? Can you fight with the weapon you choose? Are you training with your weapon enough to be able use it instinctively?

If the weapon is reliable and you're good with it, use it.

Angel Alvarez said...

Gentlemen: The M1911A1 is no longer a service weapon, is an enthusiast weapon. The local Sherriff office issue them, and for the non enthusiast rank and file deputy, the gun is a nightmare. On the other hand the Glock is a service weapon, very forgiving and simple to use and maintain. In 9MM is arguably the best weapon in the world. The shooter is the safety, that's the button line.
Later and happy Thanksgiving to you all!

Anonymous said...

Hi Fernando,
What about CZ75 P-01 (compare to Glock)?
It's more accurate and reliable (NATO TEST).
Damian