Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Reply: crime in Argentina, is it that bad?

mikeb302000 said...
Dear FerFAL, You are just a barrel of laughs. Is it that bad where you are? I live in Rome Italy and unless I go out looking for it, I don't see much trouble. I think it's a bit worse in the States, depending on where of course. But is Argentina so bad? Or is it just were you're located?

Italy is of course much safer than Argentina.
Argentina is a “High risk” country, worse than Brazil in the last few years, and in the range of places like Colombia and Ecuador.

But I suppose it also depends on what you consider bad.
People live in some of the worst hell holes and it’s a fact that suicide rates are much worse in much safer countries such as Japan or Norway, where people should be happier because of the higher standard of living.

For example there was this guy that found my blog through Reddit, also an Argentine, that said I was full of it, that I was greatly exaggerating things.

I’m used to people thinking differently, but I asked him “Ok, where are you from?”
He said “La Plata”
I told him “La Plata has been hit hard with crime recently, seems that beating up old people to death is like a local sport there, happens pretty much every week. Every time I turn on the news something terrible happened in La Plata, and you thing I’m exaggerating?”

He said “well ok, I was robbed on the street two times and suffered one home invasion since 2002, but I still think you exaggerate things”.

I didn’t answer to the guy. Had more important things to do with my time… like watching Lazy town…:^)

Later I checked the thread and an American guy told him “dude..that’s not exactly good , or normal”

What’s bad for me might be easy for someone that lives in some nameless country in Africa that just had his entire family chopped to pieces with machetes.

Some parts of Buenos Aires are very nice, some parts just look like war zones, most of the country simply looks like other latin American countries.
But no matter where you live, crime is bad here in Argentina.

If the mayor of Buenos Aires Mauricio Macri admits crime is out of control, and the vice president Julio Covos and Governor say the same, I can’t imagine how anyone can deny it.
Hell, Julio Covos talked about preventing civil war when he voted against the president’s 44% tax on farmers.

It’s no joke. Pretty serious deal.



Anonymous said...

"...a barrel of laughs..." ???

WTF you dumb a$$. This doesn't sound like a barrel of laughs to me.

FerFal keep up the good work, your information is priceless.

Jim - Cleveland, OH, USA

Anonymous said...

"...a barrel of laughs..." ??? WTF?

FerFal - keep up the good work, your info is priceless.

Jim - Cleveland, OH

Chad said...

Hey FerFal, I think you have the right attitude... some folks will never believe it and it's best not to waste your time. They have to experience it firsthand before they'll see the light (and even then, as you say in this post, some of them will be in denial... amazing really).

Reading your posts, you seem like a realist who doesn't fall for the politically correct BS, so I wanted to ask you something that I hope you don't find too offensive. I read that most Argentines have a European/white ethnic background. Actually, it seems like you guys are more European in your background than the USA is at this point. Anyways, you're probably aware that crime largely correlates to race; here in the US, blacks murder at seven times the rate of whites. There's nothing "racist" about saying so, as it's a fact anyone can research (DOJ.gov is a good starting point). For "Hispanics", the murder rate is about three times higher than whites. This is a trend that stands throughout the world, and so trying to chalk this up to "poverty" and "culture" isn't particularly convincing. People can be free to disregard these facts all they like, but in a TSHTF scenario, it will certainly be at the forefront of my mind.

Anyways, considering the European background of most Argentines, I don't entirely understand why your country has devolved to a crime state similar to Brazil or even some African countries, it seems. It's especially confusing because you're not a particularly "multicultural" country, as those tend to have significant inter-ethnic violence in times of crisis (look to our LA Riots or 1968 post-MLK riots as just two examples). If a society like yours, which is composed of a relatively "peaceful" group of people (descendants of Europeans) and is rather ethnically homogeneous, if it can have such problems, what does that hold for other societies that are more diverse when TSHTF? This has always troubled me and I'd like to hear your comments on the matter!

Norcal said...

Direct Deposit: Does anyone have any idea what to do about direct deposit checks? My husband is retired and all his checks (retired IBM, military etc) are direct deposit. What happends if the banks go on holiday? Of course I guess even if you have the check physically, it would not make any difference if the banks are closed?

The last cause said...

FerFal, in your view is the trouble in Argentina purely economic in nature, or is the fabric that once held Argentina together simply unraveling in a race to the bottom?

Is overpopulation the issue?

I ask because philosophically it is difficult for myself, an American, to draw the mental image of the "why" things are the way they are in a formerly Urbane Country.

Kyle said...

Chad, you are way off on race having anything to with violence and crime. CURRENTLY, in the prosperous US, the stats you quote are accurate. However, if you look at history, you will see that us white folks are really good at butchering each other and other people. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. Prosperity and HOPE (real hope, not the variety preached by President Unicorn) keep people in check.

If the economy tanks, and a substantial portion of the populace is permanently out of work, what do you think will happen? Do you think things will remain the same? HELL NO.

Look at the violent crime rates in European countries in the 19th century. Particularly France. Or England in the 18th century. Or the US in any time before, say, 1940.

You will soon see that your assumptions based on having grown up in the most prosperous country in the world in the most prosperous period in its history has little to do with what the world is actually like.

Shambhala said...

If a society like yours, which is composed of a relatively "peaceful" group of people (descendants of Europeans)

Yeah, Dude. Tell it to the Indians. Oh yeah, tell it to the French, British and Italians killed in WW2.

BTW, most criminals are STILL White - in case you've forgotten that little factoid.

Like Kyle has said: if we go to crap, EVERYONE will fight for the scraps. I fully expect my White friends to get every bit as desperate as we "brown-skinned" folk.

/Mestizo, and damned amused by it.

Don Williams said...

I think Chad's belief in race --as opposed to environment -- being a factor in violence is refuted by the Aryan Brotherhood. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Brotherhood

"The Aryan Brotherhood, also known as the AB or The Brand, is a White prison gang numbering about 15,000[7] members in and out of prison.[8] ...According to the FBI, although the gang makes up less than 1% of the prison population, it is responsible for up to 18% of murders in the federal prison system.[9][10]"

Will England said...

From reading, it sounds similar to small parts of the worse of Inner City America -- except it's much more widespread.

What I find most 'hopeful' about it is that it is relatively survivable. Be aware, don't be a victim, don't expect someone else to protect you. I genuinely appreciate the real-world view of what it's like.

Chad said...

I didn't want to get sidetracked here, having only wanted to get FerFal's opinion on the topic, but I contemplated on the matter and decided I should respond.

It never ceases to amaze me how, in discussions on ethnicity and race, the name callers and self-hating whites come out of the woodwork. The so-called "assumptions" about how crime correlates to race are hardly controversial to anyone who pays them mind and removes the PC-blinders. I mean that in the truest sense of the word; the link is as uncontroversial as the sun rising every morning. Ceteris paribus, race tracks with crime rates, in the United States and everywhere else. Do yourself a favor and look into which countries have the highest violent crime and murder rates. They are disproportionately located in South America and Africa. Don't make the mistake of assuming these facts mandate a deterministic viewpoint. Race and ethnicity are hardly the sole determinant factors. However, there is a stone-cold connection on the macro-level that all the well-wishing in the world will not take away. With this consideration in mind, it's also why I wanted to ask FerFal why a majority European-descended country would devolve into essentially third-world violence, and also how he thinks a more multicultural society (like the United States) would fare in Argentina-like circumstances

One other thing. Most criminals are white in the USA, yes, it's true. Do you now why this is? It's because it's a majority white country! This should hardly be surprising. The entire point of discussing the higher murder rates among different groups is to show that, if they were comprising equal segments of the population, that would no longer be so. In other words, for example, there are many more murders amongst a group of 10,000 Hispanics than amongst 10,000 Asians. Concerning the rather selective example of the Aryan Brotherhood (kind of a predictable response in discussions like these, but whatever); assuming your statement is accurate, it's hardly a condemnation of, y'know... white, non-criminal, non-murdering, non-gang members. In other words, 99.9% of the white population. It tells you absolutely nothing about the normal white person's propensity to violence which is, as I stated earlier, lower than any other group's (excluding Asians).

Anonymous said...

Chad actually makes a cogent argument. All the PC, racially equivalent apologists out there usually resort to name calling and pulling out arcane facts like the AB is the most violent criminals in prison.

I saw a picture of Fuerte Apache in Buenos Aires which as Ferfal can tell you is a a war zone. In fact in comments linked to a google map which displays Fuerte Apache somone wrote "drop 10 kiloton nuke here". And guess which ethnicity was prevalent in Fuerte Apache? If you guessed negro you win.

Now all of you apologist can continue your little delusions, but IF there is social strife amongst the population, the other races who aren't so constrained by foolish notions are gonna have alot of fun with you.

Plenty of street gangs are ethnically organized and armed to the teeth. When the authorities move out, they'll move in (as if they weren't running things already).

Bun-Bun said...

does anyone have any recommendations on concealed body armor? Sites to read about? The net is chock full of so many hits it is hard to figure out what is good, what is a reasonable price, etc... (USA)

Also - why would they be banned or such? I can't see any valid reason.

mikeb302000 said...

Thanks for the answer, FerFAL.

Kyle said...

Chad, you are way off. This is not name-calling.

I am far from a self-hating white person. I am not a racist in any form, though politically correct people may say that I am, because they are idiots. I don't think that the facts (not inferences) you are stating are racist at all. They're facts. I am a "race realist," yet I am also not a white supremacist.

The point is that we must recognize the fact that white people can be just as bad, and history bears this out. Argentina bears this out. You are SURPRISED - actively surprised - that crime and violence isn't strictly correlated with race in Argentina, because they DO closely correlate in the US?

Take the blinders off. It's not politically correct to say that white people can be butchers, too. The most horrific serial killers are almost to a man Caucasian. My grandfather's dad was murdered by another white man. Nothing politically correct about that. We took this continent by murdering, raping, and enslaving people. This is how things have always been done in history - I am not guilty about it, but we can't lie and pretend that we are superior to anybody. It's reality.

You are looking for an explanation, or applying a world view to explain a situation, and are doing the name-calling because it's not working. Facts are facts. We've been here, reading and commenting, and are not "coming out of the woodwork" to attack you - just to point out that some of your facts are right, but your core argument - that Europeans are "peaceful people," are wrong. Don't mistake 1950-2009 with reality. This has been a VERY special, peaceful, prosperous time in human history. Human history shows that this is anomalous.

White people are peaceful when times are peaceful, and the culture is peaceful. Europeans have been intermittently butchering each other since the beginning of time. Asian nationalities with extremely low crime rates and very placid religions will bust out with massacres and degradation when you least expect it.

We're all humans, and humans are killers. It's smart to keep your eyes open and not be a blindered, PC fool, but it's also smart to understand that the guy next door may murder you and take your stuff if his family is starving, or he sees an advantage in doing so.

Anonymous said...


Very simply, poverty breeds crime. Race has nothing to do with it. That premise is the foundation of modern sociology studies.

Anonymous said...

Excellent, Kyle. Well put. Hopefully that doesn't fall on deaf ears.

Anonymous said...

I was planning on making a trip to Argentina. I have a 'brown' face and my friend has a 'black' face but on reading all the comments and doing our research on how the 'black population is almost non existent in this country (a mystery for historians) I'm beginning to wonder whether the current revived crime rate in Argentina can just be the supressed genetics of a 'european peaceful race' resurfacing in light of their current economic conditions. I do not want to use the word ethnic cleansing or remind some people that only a few years ago ethnic cleansing wiped off a peaceful country like Yogoslavia from the European map..... just a thought for Chad!
But these are things that simplistic people of little mind never comprehend it easier to see things in BLACK & WHITE!

steve said...

I lived in Argentina for 3 years, 1991-1994. It was so incredibly safe back then that I was amazed. Young and old, preteen boys and girls, men and women walking in the middle of the night w/o any concern for crime- EVER. I never worried about it myself.

It saddens me that the country's economic collapse has brought about such high levels of crime in the past 10 years or so. I see people are baffled as to how an almost all white country cold have such high crime rates, well, it basically boils down to one thing: THE ECONOMY.

Argentina used to rival the U.S. as the world's wealthies country until around 1950. Steadily Argentina declined, but still retained it's extremely large and well educated middle class.

Unfortunately, Argentina periodically experiences economic meltdowns, but none as severe as the most recent economic crisis which has shredded the middle class.

The Argentines are extroverts to the extreme and love a great time, it's sad that I hear the streets are vacant at night now and that people are afraid to leave their houses.

I could only hope that things eventually turn around for this country that is probably the world's biggest disappointment.

differentflags said...

Hello, I am so sad to hear about the crime rate in Argentina. Why do you think it's as bad as you describe it? Why are old people beaten up? Eugenia Renskoff

differentflags said...

Hello, Why do you think the crime rate in Argentina is soaring? Eugenia Renskoff

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