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Chad said...
I didn't want to get sidetracked here, having only wanted to get FerFal's opinion on the topic, but I contemplated on the matter and decided I should respond.
It never ceases to amaze me how, in discussions on ethnicity and race, the name callers and self-hating whites come out of the woodwork. The so-called "assumptions" about how crime correlates to race are hardly controversial to anyone who pays them mind and removes the PC-blinders. I mean that in the truest sense of the word; the link is as uncontroversial as the sun rising every morning. Ceteris paribus, race tracks with crime rates, in the United States and everywhere else. Do yourself a favor and look into which countries have the highest violent crime and murder rates. They are disproportionately located in South America and Africa. Don't make the mistake of assuming these facts mandate a deterministic viewpoint. Race and ethnicity are hardly the sole determinant factors. However, there is a stone-cold connection on the macro-level that all the well-wishing in the world will not take away. With this consideration in mind, it's also why I wanted to ask FerFal why a majority European-descended country would devolve into essentially third-world violence, and also how he thinks a more multicultural society (like the United States) would fare in Argentina-like circumstances
One other thing. Most criminals are white in the USA, yes, it's true. Do you now why this is? It's because it's a majority white country! This should hardly be surprising. The entire point of discussing the higher murder rates among different groups is to show that, if they were comprising equal segments of the population, that would no longer be so. In other words, for example, there are many more murders amongst a group of 10,000 Hispanics than amongst 10,000 Asians. Concerning the rather selective example of the Aryan Brotherhood (kind of a predictable response in discussions like these, but whatever); assuming your statement is accurate, it's hardly a condemnation of, y'know... white, non-criminal, non-murdering, non-gang members. In other words, 99.9% of the white population. It tells you absolutely nothing about the normal white person's propensity to violence which is, as I stated earlier, lower than any other group's (excluding Asians).
February 17, 2009 5:46 PM
Anonymous said...
Chad actually makes a cogent argument. All the PC, racially equivalent apologists out there usually resort to name calling and pulling out arcane facts like the AB is the most violent criminals in prison.
I saw a picture of Fuerte Apache in Buenos Aires which as Ferfal can tell you is a a war zone. In fact in comments linked to a google map which displays Fuerte Apache somone wrote "drop 10 kiloton nuke here". And guess which ethnicity was prevalent in Fuerte Apache? If you guessed negro you win.
Now all of you apologist can continue your little delusions, but IF there is social strife amongst the population, the other races who aren't so constrained by foolish notions are gonna have alot of fun with you.
Plenty of street gangs are ethnically organized and armed to the teeth. When the authorities move out, they'll move in (as if they weren't running things already).
As you say before, most people here are white. There’s no African black people here, at least not in any significant numbers.
There’s some people with darker skin due to the mixing with natives when the conquistadors came here, but overall it’s white people from Spain, Italy, and a small number of Russian, German, and very small number of Arabs.
There’s also a growing Bolivian and Paraguayan community (more of native ethnic, a bit short, brown skin), Unfortunately thought many of them come here and work very hard, there’s many of them that take part in criminal activities.
Many women from these bordering countries are also promised great job opportunities in Argentina, only to find out that they end up trapped in prostitution networks as modern slaves.
But 90% give or take and without splitting hair into race purity or whatever, sure, people here are white.
About 80% of the country is Catholic as well.
It’s clear though, there’s a growing number of so called evangelical churches, with self proclaimed pastors.
They are very common among the poorest population, and unfortunately many times all they are after is what little money they have.
Many of these have embraced criminals and drug dealers into their pseudo churches, since more traditional institutions like the Catholic church or the Jewish community have much stricter moral codes.
These evangelical pastors say all you have to do after robbing, murdering, raping or committing just any atrocity, is to ask God for forgiveness, and God will always forgive. Confessing evil deeds to another person is a bit more uncomfortable to them, it would seem, so these churches are rather convenient.
This is why hands down the most popular religion in prison is some form of evangelical Christianity.
The few real black people we see here are either American tourists, African street merchants ( they mostly sell low quality gold Jewelry) or maybe someone from Brazil.
My son is 6 years old and last week was the first time he saw a real black person.
We where both waiting in line and I started talking with the guy. Turns out he lived here most of his life, parents came from Africa.
He was as much Argentine as I am. The way he talked, dressed. We talked about football a bit, very normal guy, more polite than average person I run across.
I believe the kind of problems you guys have up there aren’t really racial, but cultural ( intentionally created by a political agenda).
The subliminal indoctrination, making it seem ok for black people to hate white, reparations for slavery, and other political mechanisms to divide society and make people hate one another, also creating poor, marginal sectors of society.
The more poor, uneducated and stupid people get, the easier they are to control. It also creates cheap labor and uneducated voters.
Politicians and the people in power use this things to their advantage.
Anyone thinking black people are all the same around the world should compare the getto culture glorified by Hollywood and government alike, to the hard working black people I saw working in the fields of Spain.
No, not slaves. These guys risked their lives across the Mediterranean to get there and enjoy the privilege of having a job in a civilized country. They were damn proud about it and they should be.
They were the kindest most educated people I saw during the month I spent there.
You mention Fuerte Apache somewhere, and while it is one of the most dangerous places a person can walk into anywhere in the world, it’s not because of black people. There’s no black people in Fuerte Apache, they are white.
I think a real black person would be dead in Fuerte Apache rather soon. So would a German, an American, a Chinese, a Jew or a white person that doesn’t look poor.
Why?, because that’s not how the political machinery works in Argentina.
We are not divided by color ( though skin color and religion are all good excuses for the kind of hatred and violence often seen).
But no, out government ( particularly our president and his right hand, Mr. Luis Delia) made sure this country is divided into “rich” and “poor”.
The poor are referred to as “Negro”, but a “Negro” in Argentina may as well be a white skinned, blue eyed blonde of Italian heritage.
“Negro” is the word describe those of darker skin, but more than that the bum and lazy, but also the poor, the uneducated.
Mr Luis Delia openly shouts on radio that the “negros” should start killing “whites”, and “the rich”.
You see, it’s all hatred, and through hatred they control the stupid mass.
The poor guy that has no job and had little education and comes from a history of domestic violence, the kid that has lived a life of crime, the drug addict, they all fit into this “Negro” box, and this guy, that is the president’s right hand, is telling them it’s ok to kill the “white” the “rich”… of course the mass is too stupid to notice that Mr. Nestor Kirchner is rich beyond their wildest dreams… and he also happens to be a blue eyed white of German ancestry.
The mass is stupid, and will blame and hate whomever they are told to blame for their calamities.
In Argentina it’s the “rich”.
But since the real “rich” are far beyond the reach of the mass, since they live in very exclusive places or don’t even live most of the year in the country, who’s the “Negro” going after?
The middle class. The hard worker that forged a better future for himself and his family.
The middle class Mr. Kirchner promised would “get on their knees”.
So far he’s succeeded. The Argentine middle class is nearly destroyed, and the social hatred is evident.
The bad guys, many of which consider themselves “Negro” , will not only rob, they’ll murder and rape because the hatred is well fueled.
And after all, it’s also government approved.
About racism, real racism, all I can say is that I don’t think it’s a smart choice in terms of awareness.
I’m not going to get into my personal opinion on racism, (frankly I don’t like it or approve it), but worse than that, it creates preconceived notions that I find go against the practical way in which I view things.
I distrust anyone equally, of any skin color and religion, until proven they are worthy of trust.
I’m color blind when it comes to detecting threats.
If you think that white people are less dangerous than blacks, you’d be surprised by the number of pretty 15 year old white girls that commit crimes on regular basis, often more cruel than males.
Not long ago a cop got stabbed and was seriously wounded by a 14 year old girl.
He got too close and his gun did him no good, he never even managed to bring it out of the holster. His armor vest probably saved his life.
I’m sure he’s not going to underestimate young white girls ever again.
FerFAL
16 comments:
Spot on, brother. Divide and conquer - nothing new for politicians. Something as obvious as skin color is just the easiest, most obvious way to drive a wedge and then sow dissent and resentment.
It was really interesting to read this post and learn a little about how race is perceived in Argentina. (I'm in the U.S.)
I'm confused on one point, though: you seem to be saying that it takes "subliminal indoctrination" for anyone up here to believe in reparations for slavery.
Why is that? It seems to me, and I don't support reparations for slavery, that this issue is a fairly simple claim. People are saying, "My ancestors were horribly mistreated by our society, and as a result, my family has less than other families. It isn't right that some members of society have what was taken from others."
Some of my ancestors were taken as slaves from the northern coasts of Spain and forced to work in Vikings towns as farmers.
I learned about this interesting piece of history last year.
This is an undeniable fact, since it’s well documented. Do I have a right to claim compensation to Norway for the horrible enslavement my ancestors suffered?
Am I any less special? Did Vikings treat my ancestors better than slavers treated blacks?
Almost every nation or ethnic group was defeated and enslaved at some point of history.
Hey, where’s the compensation for Latinos? Europeans came to America and destroyed their wonderful cities, their culture, stole their gold, spread diseases, knocked up their women and took away their rightfully owned land.
And reparations for them are where exactly…?
If so many people are so worried about doing what’s right, why don’t blacks go back to Africa, Europeans go back to Europe and Latinos stay here..?
Of course no one thinks about doing that. It’s not...hmm?… convenient?
They prefer to focus on black slavery.
It’s all BS, just another tool used to tell blacks “you are different”.
You cannot blame white people for what their grandparents did, same way I can’t blame you for any terrible act your father or grandfather may have done.
Many black people find these reparations pretty insulting as well.
Check out Pen and Tellers’s Reparation is BS videos in youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7B9QZlr8YQ
It’s just a way of keeping on and on, licking wounds, wounds that are already gone but they want to tear them up to make them bleed again.
What’s done is done and people should not forget history but we can’t
live in the past forever.
It’s just an excuse to pour money in poor black communities. It’s a way of telling them they can’t do things on your own, and someone out there ( whites) OWE you. You are poor because your grandpa was enslaved, not because the gov. that acts so morally cant let a day go by without drilling into your head the same message: you that you are black and poor, hence you are different. Here, have a few bucks.
Check the Penn and Teller video, it’s pretty good.
Besides, it's simply wrong.
Did you ensalve anyone?
Then why should your taxes pay for some BS strategy?
FerFAL
Do I have a right to claim compensation to Norway for the horrible enslavement my ancestors suffered?
If you can show that your family still suffers from the harm done to your ancestors, and that Norway as a whole still enjoys the benefits, I think you'd have a claim. As I said, I don't support reparations for slavery.
Did Vikings treat my ancestors better than slavers treated blacks?
Well ... yes, they did. And more importantly, I don't know that you and your ancestors have been mistreated by Norway in all the years since. Have they?
It’s all BS, just another tool used to tell blacks “you are different”.
I'm not sure that I follow you here. Blacks in the U.S. are, on the whole, significantly disadvantaged, because of slavery and racial discrimination, to this very day. This is, as you would say, an undeniable fact.
You cannot blame white people for what their grandparents did....
No one's talking about blame, just about receiving what was taken from their families.
It’s just a way of keeping on and on, licking wounds, wounds that are already gone....
May we agree about this issue after all, then? You're saying that the wounds "are already gone," when in fact we know that blacks in the U.S. still suffer from those wounds today.
Did you ensalve anyone?
Then why should your taxes pay for some BS strategy?
Because I, and all Americans alive today, enjoy the fruits of that enslavement?
James, please expound more on the fruits of that slavery that ALL Americans alive today enjoy.
Sure, Anonymous. Briefly, the U.S. wouldn't have the #1 economy in the world, or one of the highest standards of living, without its history of slavery.
Slavery was critical to the colonial American economy in the north and south, was essential to American independence, and was how the United States was able to industrialize when it did.
How do immigrants since the civil war who live in any area of the country other than the old slave states derive any fruits from slavery.
Well, I just mentioned that their standard of living is heavily dependent upon that history.
But let's look more closely at the average immigrant to the U.S. after the Civil War. He usually came because of the jobs provided by the booming economny, courtesy of the pre-Civil War, slave-based economy. He usually arrived with culture, religion, values, family structure, basic education, possibly skills and even a bit of savings. Those who had been enslaved were stripped of all of these things, and they and their families were left with nothing.
In the 20th century, those immigrants and their descendants were given massive federal aid to buy homes, get higher education, gain jobs, and take out small business loans. These programs built the white middle class. The freed slaves and their descendants, meanwhile, were systematically deprived of these opportunities and, in fact, were generally prevented from getting all but the most rudimentary education and most menial jobs.
Or the poor whites who live in the Northern states whose family never had a thing to do with slavery
Well, those poor whites benefited from much of what I wrote above.
But how could their families have had nothing to do with slavery, if they weren't immigrants?
The North had widespread slavery, and slavery was absolutely essential to the northern economy. It impacted the economic livelihood of everyone, even those who didn't personally own slaves (and many ordinary people did).
"Because I, and all Americans alive today, enjoy the fruits of that enslavement?"
Well James, knock yourself out.
I am sure giving 20% of your salary to the NAACP would be appreciated by them.
As they say: you can talk the talk, now walk the walk.
Let us know how it goes.
If it would have been up to me, there wouldn't have been slaves in the U.S. Then again, if that had happened, countless people wouldn't have been exposed to The Gospel of Jesus Christ, they'd be starving in a third world country, probably being exploited by their own countrymen (who sold them into slavery), and they wouldn't be the richest poor people in the world. God delivered them and gave them opportunity. Instead of hate, they need to read the story of Joseph. What evil people did for their reasons, God allowed to happen for His reasons that so many people could be saved and delivered.
Let's just leave it there, please guys?
FerFAL
"Sure, Anonymous. Briefly, the U.S. wouldn't have the #1 economy in the world, or one of the highest standards of living, without its history of slavery.
Slavery was critical to the colonial American economy in the north and south, was essential to American independence, and was how the United States was able to industrialize when it did."
This is not true. Slavery may have been critical for cotton farmers in the south. After the abolishment of slavery the african americans still worked on the same plantations - the cotton farmers did not suffer disadvantages.
You claim that the standard of living in the USA depends on the slavery before 1865.
The standard of living is the fruit of something else: a legal system that protects business and a society that encourages a work ethic.
Lack of bureaucracy and thus an innovative environment.
Brazil had african slaves, too. Brazil never had a standard of living as high as in the USA. The reason: the nation was not run properly.
Brazil was known in Europe to be an extremely disorderly nation in the 19th century. Poverty was great.
At the same time, though, in Europe no black slaves were used, but the eruopean states thrived.
The US states in which slavery was most important (and legal) were the less industrialized and thus the poorest.
I want to respect FerFAL's request that we not continue this discussion.
I'll just point out, Anonymous, that you are badly mistaken about the role of slavery in U.S. economy history. I would be happy to provide details, but unless FerFAL wants us to talk more here, you would need to visit my blog or contact me offline if you wish to discuss this further.
Thanks, FerFAL, for providing a congenial environment in which to talk and learn about important issues.
Thanks James, I’ve been on forums for a while and if there’s one thing I’ve learned is that arguing about racism, religion and politics leads nowhere.
I've done it many times, and generaly want to kick myself in the head when I see myself doing it again.
Chad asked about how it affects security crime and violence in general, I told my opinion, so did everyone that posted, no comment was censored or rejected.
But I know very well it’s something that can go on and on until hell freezes, 99% getting pretty ugly.
I’ll just make a final comment James.
I was surprised to find out that in many forms and paper people have to fill in USA, next to age and gender there’s a box for race…
I think this is insulting, ridiculous, terribly racist, and an example of how people in America are obsessed with it.
Race?
I’ve filled hundreds of forms, applications and documents in my country, I’ve never seen a box to fill that said “race”
What are you supposed to put in there? “Human” is the only thing I can think of.
FerFAL
I think this is insulting, ridiculous, terribly racist, and an example of how people in America are obsessed with it.
It often feels that way to me, too, FerFAL.
Think of it this way, though: We know that race still dramatically affects people's lives in the U.S. People are often treated differently because of race, and what they are born with depends heavily on their race.
Wouldn't ignoring race altogether simply amount to pretending that these issues didn't exist, and doing nothing about them? That seems to me as great a mistake as thinking that race has any inherent meaning.
If we want a society in which race doesn't matter, then we can't simply stop thinking about race. We also need to address the ways in which race still matters, because of our long history around race.
Great post, FerFal, and I agree with you that these problems are cultural rather than genetically or racially-determined. People learn to be a certain way from their family, upbringing, and surroundings. That's not to say that some people are not predisposed to become a certain way, but I don't think we should paint groups of people with one broad brush.
For some outstanding quantitative analysis confirming that which is easily observed yet forbidden from being stated, see:
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/
The person behind this research is a university professor, who decided to go anonymous rather than face personal safety issues and risking career termination from the extreme left that dominates pretty much the entire higher education system in the US.
Hi FerFal - I just found your site. I've lived in a few countries and places (including Spain). Some predominantly white, some predominantly black and some with no real majority whatsoever. Strip away ethnicities and race and all had the same political climate. Politicians who exaggerated and inflamed differences in order to turn one group against the next and turn everyone's attention away from the fact that they were stealing the country's resources in one way or another. The poor (no matter the race) have limited opportunities, commit more crimes and are pretty pissed off. Those with more resources are pissed off that the government isn't doing anything except sucking up money and are pissed off that the poor seem to be getting much for free and are trying to take what they have. The wealthy are just intent on getting their hands on more and more. Frequently the wealthy are politicians and people in the financial industry or are connected to them. Once again, thanks for not focusing on race in your blog even though you talk about crime quite a bit. The US focuses on race far too much and on the in equality between classes far too little. Probably because the government is doing a great job of keeping the largest group in America (the poor and politically poor divided).
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