Tuesday, October 13, 2009

How much ammo capacity do I need?

Dedicated to some number crunchers out there counting on only shooting 2 or 3 rounds in a gunfight:
Robbery attempt in nearby Lanus yesterday night, southern suburbs of Buenos Aires.
As a cop was entering his house some bad guys try to force themselves inside along with him (typical modus operandi).
Cop starts shooting, kills one, wounds another.
Rounds fired?: Over 30 shots fired.
I tried to find a link but seems the news is too recent, since I just saw it on TV this morning. Interestingly enough, I came by another shooting in Lanus, also a cop fighting five bad guys during a robbery: 40 rounds fired. Cops was wounded and survived, a bad guy was supposedly wounded as well.

Of course these cops here are amateurs, maybe have a couple dozen gunfights on them, unlike so many legendary armchair commando warriors that never miss a shot and have thousands of battles to their credit.



Bones said...

Here's a link to a video showing a recent shootout in the US. Makes you wonder if anyone bothers to aim anymore.


Anonymous said...

when people ask me how much ammo to carry I reply "One more". Which leads to the question of "one more round, magazine, gun?" and my response is "Yes". When I was deployed to Iraq realized you can never go back for more when you need it so you have to have it on you.

Anonymous said...

Ferfal, why so angry? I like the blog, but disagree that most people need to carry a Glock with 19 rounds and some extra mags.

My girlfriend won't carry at all, but I keep working on her, hoping that she may one day at least put a 38 in her purse or pocket. The idea of her carrying a Glock is impossible, might as well ask her to carry a FAL.

Another thing to consider is that in USA you are responsible for every round you fire, so hiding behind cover and firing a few rounds of suppressing fire on the street is a dangerous proposition. Hit a bystander? Big big problem.

Different guns for different people, and different situations. And different countries. In USA most defensive shootings are 1-3 shots fired at a short distance in a few seconds. Blazing away for another dozen rounds is asking for a murder charge. Argentina sounds much more hard core.

Anonymous said...

From my understanding of the article, the policeman was not seriously wounded and returned to his usual duties. Do you think he was wearing body armor while off-duty?

I would guess a non-LEO who practices regularly might have a 5-10% accuracy rate in a firefight. So 30 shots fired might get 1 to 3 rounds on target, and if your lucky, one of those may be incapacitating. As opposed to a firing range, the target does not come from a predictable direction, is not standing still, is actively moving between cover and concealment, and is returning fire. And since your life is on the line, your adrenaline is pumping so hard that your whole body is shaking. A cop with training and experience may be able to remain calm and collected during a firefight, but I wouldn't be.

Anonymous said...

Forgot to add, if you are being fired at by four or five determined attackers you don't need extra ammo, you need to get away. Even with unlimited ammo you are badly outnumbered and will probably lose.

FerFAL said...

Anon, dude , I'm not angry at all.
Why would I?
I'm pointing out that statisitcs are mostly and average, and most of them are many years dated to make matters worse.

About your girlfriend, a Glock 19 takes as much space as a snubby give or take, the sub compact Glocks are even smaller.

Unless you want the revovler's operator simplicity, the Glock is smaller, more accurate and fires a better caliber and has greater capacity.
The again, for somoene with little experience, a revovler is better.

Anonymous said...

Ferfal, have you seen this? I wonder if another default will affect the poor in your country?

Oct. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Argentina will be forced to default by 2011 unless the government reaches an accord with investors holding $20 billion of bonds kept out of the last restructuring offer, Stone Harbor Investment Partners says.


theotherryan said...

What is that old joke about ammo in a gunfight, there is no benefit to bringing home extra but the penalty for running out can be very high. Or at least something to the effect.

For concealed carry I personally like the compact Glock 9mm but certainly don't feel naked if I have a 2" .38. I think for carry the biggest concern isn't ammo capacity, it is having the darn thing with you! A full sized Glock/Sig/XD/H&K that holds 15-20 bullets will not help you a darn bit if you are on the street waiting in line to get a sandwich and it is in the nightstand. Carry the biggest (size, capacity and caliber) pistol that you can use and will carry all the time.

I will mention that IMO just about any normalish sized man (and a lot of women)can conceal a Glock 19 if their choice in clothing is not super tight.

For a house pistol (if you can afford one after buying the concealed piece) by all means get a full sized handgun. Consider an extended magazine also. FWIW I favor shotguns for home defense. Fewer shots but they really work!

Jack said...

Anon 8:24 was asking about 20 Billion dollars in debt that might make Argentina default in 2011.

And we owe 11 thousand billions of dollars (11 trillion) and our govt says we we're going to spend another couple of thousand billions (trillions) on health care and more stimulus, but we are recovering and we have "green shoots"?

Better stock up on ammo capacity, 'cause "We're all doomed!" (to quote Dakin)

Anonymous said...

"Another thing to consider is that in USA you are responsible for every round you fire..."

Couple of thoughts...

1. If you are in a fight for your life, you aren't going to count rounds you send down range. You will pull the trigger until the threat is over.

2. You are looking at the status quo (responsibility). This blog gives us some insight into what could happen. If the cops can't even patrol the streets, do you think they are going to be able to enforce every law making everyone accountable.

Innocent people catch stray rounds all the time and the shooter is never know. More so in the third world than the US, but it still happens.

Anonymous said...

"...unlike so many legendary armchair commando warriors that never miss a shot and have thousands of battles to their credit."

I had to LOL...

Anonymous said...

Bones...as a person who LIVES in the city where that video was shot it's been on the news for the last several nights and every time I see it I have to laugh because I've been IN that bar and it's a pretty small space - how no one was hit is amazing.

A few points. The person on the floor WAS point shooting at the guy in the doorway, it started over the three guys getting kicked out for selling dope inside the place. Approx 21 casings were recovered - and no one was hit.

Biggest part was that the video shows bartender calling 9-1-1 and police didn't show up for 10 minutes once the shooting started. There is a police substation approx. one mile from that bar and yet it took approx 10 minutes for the police to show up. The College campus is also about a mile from that bar.

I don't go anywhere in this city without a good flashlight, and a spare hi cap magazine for my pistol. I also stay out of questionable bars in the 'bad' areas of town.

Double Tapper said...

More ammo is always better. However, for some reason, most gun fights here in the states end with far fewer shots fired. Unless you are the police - they tend to dump mag after mag onto suspects - especially the New York PD.

Anonymous said...

i don't think the amount of fire was excessive considering other documented sources. Case in point, the Diallo shooting by NYPD, there were 41 shots fired, 19 of which hit. In a sudden stressful situation this is considered good. A further reading the report, law enforcement fired supressively after they believed one of there own was hit.

Most police training in the United States stresses that you continue to fire until the target drops. This is a lesson reinforced by experience where in some situations some people refuse to stop immediately when shot, and have even been able to effectively retaliate.

Stress and adrenaline do funny things to people. It inhibits higher order thinking and memory, but it does focus the mind nicely as to whether one should fight or flee, and do so in an immediate and energetic manner.

Anonymous said...

That bar shootout is amazing ! Does anyone think all those cool optics like red dots and lazer could help. And does anyone think they are calm enough to really make aimed shot in this situation. It seems these guys in the video are just blasting away hoping to land a shot.

Ferfal, great blog :)


Anonymous said...

Good post Ferfal, thanks for doing what you do.

The posted gangster shooting video should be an example to legally armed citizens on how to not go about doing business.

I agree that the small Glocks are a better choice than a snub .38 for most folks, and I find them easier for new shooters to shoot really well.
A G26 is the small size envelope as a S&W J frame, and weighs about the same as the steel framed guns. The Glocks also have a better trigger and better sights.

I don;t find the snubbys to be beginner's guns, they are actually an experts gun when you really examine the issue.



theotherryan said...

The ubiquitous .38 snubby is really bigger than you think. If you own one of them and a Compact Glock (19,23,etc) take one and lay it on top of the other. You may be surprised but they are essentially the same size and the Glock is just a touch heavier than the untralights but superbly more shootable and with 3x the bullets.

Pitt said...

Anon @ 7:38am said that a non-LEO that practices regularly would likely only hit with 5-10% of the rounds he fired.

I would be more likely to put my money on the non-LEO being more successful than you average beat cop in a gunfight.

Most of the people I know who have a CCW permit practice fairly regularly with their weapons. They also tend to be more dedicated to being responsible gunowners.

A great many LEOs are not gun people and only tend to practice when they have to. In my dept, they only fire rounds during quals and they only have quals 2x/yr. I have shot with, trained with and competed against a lot of cops that I wouldn't want standing behind me with a loaded gun.

Anonymous said...

Taking into account hit rates. And that hit rates on shootings can be as low as 17.4 percent.

This means people who carry a 5 shot revolver really only have ONE effective bullet (more likely ZERO) likely hit an assailant. Kind of makes me rethink the scene of the guy with the 'hand cannon' in Pulp Fiction.

Anonymous said...

pistol lights and laser-
Ferfal, in all your pics of handguns especially glocks, I never seen you have any cool attachments on them like: laser, light, reflex sight, red dot, and other tacticool gears. How usefull do you think those gadgets will be in real life ? Thanks. love your blog.