Friday, October 1, 2010

Gunfight Video



This post is about gunfighting. I’m including two videos that have some good lessons to be learned. A favorite saying of mine is that people learn from their mistake but smart people learn from the mistakes made by others. These are real shooting videos, the second one unfortunately doesn’t end well for the officer involved. The point of this is to learn what works and what doesn’t from a tactical point of view, so please stick to this alone and leave personal views regarding the people involved out of the discussion.
For those that aren’t familiar with the blog and may wonder what’s all this got to do with survival after an economic collapse, the answer is that an economic collapse changes the society you’ll be living in. The more poor people you have, the lack of jobs combined with no hope in a better future means the society will get more violent, more aggressive. There will be more crime, and the crime incidents themselves will have more unnecessary violence. 
In the first video we see a cops retreating after the suspect opens fire with an AK47. He returns fire with his 9mm. What I want to point out in this video is the properly executed retreat, combined with suppressive fire (from a pistol!) at exactly the right time. The officer hurries away and starts shooting, those suppressive fire rounds need not be surgical one shot snipers shots. The purpose of the shots is giving the bad guy something to think about, keep his head down and not get shot in the back. Well done. Did you notice the perfect weaver stance the officer uses? Nope! He shoots single handed while he keeps moving backward. How about handgun capacity not being important?

Couch commando: “Huh, my S&W has 6 shots. More than enough for one bad guy!” No my friend. You never know how these things turn out. So once again: A full sized high capacity pistol is what you need to carry. And yes capacity is important no matter what. They still haven’t made a handgun that has too much ammo capacity and that’s exactly what you’ll feel in a situation like this.

This second video is pretty disturbing so caution is recommended.
In it you’ll se a police officer that, understanding that he’s dealing with mentally disturbed individual, he underestimated the danger and simply can’t bring himself to shoot the suspect. The right moment to shoot? When he charged the first time. You simply cannot allow that to happen. Think of it this way: If the guy is crazy enough to charge you inspite of being held at gunpoint and told not to do it, you can expect just about anything form such a person. A folding knife could have been used to kill the officer at such a ranger. When should he have absolutely shoot the suspect. When he went to his vehicle searching for his rifle. He already assaulted the officer, what else would he be going for? His Miley Cyrus photo album? Of course not.
Notice that the bad guy is well trained. The way he moves with the rifle is so natural. The way he lowers his torso, how he fires as he moves. That man was well trained an experienced. You never have to underestimate your opponent. 

He may be a sissy that gets scared after you first heel of the hand strike… or he may be a mentally disturbed vet that can shoot you to pieces. Don’t eve underestimate your opponent on the street and always expect him to be armed. Unless he’s wearing a floss thong in a beach in Rio, assume he has a handgun or knife concealed somewhere.
Take care folks.

FerFAL

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the 1911 fanboys will show up to claim 8+1 rounds and a couple of spare magazines is enough.

FerFAL said...

You know, these days I think that the kind of weapons out there dictate the rule. 7+1 or 8+1, I wouldn't want to have a single stack auto. The 1911 is a very capable weapon, its proven itself time and again. Yet my Glock 31 is more powerful, more rugged and shoots 16 rounds before you need to reload.
The more you see these videos the more you see how important it is to have a powerful enough gun and enough ammo.

FerFAL

greg said...

Sad, watching the cop repeatedly make the wrong decisions.

We have 100% hindsight, of course, but tear gas, a club & handcuffs during the initial phase would have nipped that in the bud.

After that, seeing the driver hold a gun & menace him, then not shoot, was a tragic error.

Pulling the trigger at the moment of truth can't be done by some. Hopefully I'll never find out, but if needed I like to think I can.

Anonymous said...

this is one the cop haters need to see. How quickly some non compliant unarmed man can turn into your worst nightmare. Its really sad. This is why police need to maintain control of a situation at all times, their lives depend on it.

EN said...

"I wonder if the 1911 fanboys will show"

Here I am. Let's take the first video. I count 10 shots when the officer retreats behind the patrol car. It says he got off sixteen rds total. So I would have had 9 in the gun initially and had to do a reload, not impossible since he had plenty of time to keep his head down.

Video 2. If that officer had been armed with a howitzer it wouldn't have made any difference. A .22 LR would have done the job just fine if his tactics were better. He had every chance to end that fight early but chose to give the assailant a break. A glock, M4, AK, sniper rifle, SMG; you pick it. None of them would have done better than a 1911 in that case.

At some point every weapon can be put at a disadvantage, so tactics are paramount. Glock owners have always worried me with the mindset that they have enough ammo. Anyone who takes comfort in carrying a larger capacity pistol in either one of these cases is in great danger of overestimating tools over smart tactics.

Escobar said...

That second video is very sad and haunting. I understand that video is now being used to train police officers.

Anonymous said...

That second video was a VERY tough thing to watch and has stuck with me ALL day. Does anyone know if, by some miracle, the policeman survived and what the history/background was of the shooter?

Anonymous said...

Full story in writing is as disturbing as the video ...

Deputy Kyle Dinkheller was shot and killed after pulling over a man on a rural road about 6 miles north of Dublin, Georgia. During the traffic stop he called in for backup. Before the backup arrived he was shot by the man with a rifle. He was able to return fire, striking the suspect in the stomach. The suspect was found during a search the next morning and taken into custody.

The entire incident was videotaped by a camera in Deputy Dinkheller's patrol car. On January 28, 2000, the suspect was found guilty of murder and was sentenced to death two days later.

Deputy Dinkheller is survived by his expectant wife and 22-month-old daughter. Deputy Dinkheller's son was born in early September 1998.


THE INCIDENT

Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, Laurens County, GA, was minutes from being off duty when he
encountered a speeding pickup truck going 98 mph. The deputy was an ICE (Interstate
Criminal Enforcement) officer that dealt with traffic infractions, speeding and the occasional
drug bust. This was a low risk or unknown risk stop for speeding. He radioed in the speeding
infraction, made a U-turn in the median and pursued the vehicle.

The driver, Andrew Brannan, stopped his vehicle, exited and started a crazy, dancing jig in
the middle of the road while swearing at the officer and shouting ‘I’m a god-damned
Vietnam vet.” At first, he ignored Dinkheller’s commands to step towards the deputy, which
always began with `Sir’.

When he finally complied, he attacked the deputy and a scuffle ensued. The deputy
implemented the use of his asp and ordered Brannan to `get back’. This procedure was
repeated, but after what appeared to be a second scuffle, the suspect returned to his vehicle
and retrieved a M-I Carbine from under the seat. The first shots were fired nearly 50 seconds
after Brannan returned to his vehicle despite the deputy’s commands

Brannan ignored the repeated commands to put the gun down and Deputy Dinkheller
apparently fired the first shot. Brannan, a Vietnam veteran, advanced firing on the deputy.
Dinkheller returned fire, but succeeded only in breaking a window in the driver’s side of the
pickup and wounding Brannan in the stomach. Using `suppressive fire’, Brannan
systematically, methodically shot Dinkheller in the arms, legs, exposed areas that would not
be covered had Dinkheller been wearing a bulletproof vest, slowly executing him. Reloading
his weapon Brannan continued firing with the final death shot to Dinkheller’s right eye

Ed said...

This is disturbing indeed...

1st brawl; he could have used pepperspray.
"If I were" in that situation, I would have shot the moment he reached out for something in his truck. He could be reaching for anything - given he is a total weirdo.

How sad for the wife and kid the policeman leaves behind.

Maldek said...

First video:
The cop was a professional, he got surprised and outguned...but still managed to win.

He had lots of training and knew what to do. Well done.

The villain in this video was *cough* a survival-couch-Rambo with tons of guns/amno and a military style bunker at home....he did however clearly lack training or practical experience so despite his better weapons and the moment of surprise he managed to loose 3:0.

Second video:
The voice of the cop alone sounded like he was ful of fear. Unsecure. He didnt show any strength in voice, and kept repeating the same words. He didnt know what to do.

The other guy played the maniac but he did provoke on purpose. He wanted the fight.
When the fight started he was professional, he was cold blooded and DESPITE BEEING SHOT IN THE STOMACH he kept moving and shooting like a clockwork.

My personal impression:
The villain wouldnt have shot an unarmed man (honor) but did sure try to provoke a fight. The moment the fight started the cop was a dead man, no matter if he had a glock or not.

Carlos said...

That second video has been on my mind since I saw it as well. I was saddened to read about the incident and the family the officer left behind. I also understand the scumbag in the video still has not been executed.

For me, it shows the importance of staying away from those kinds of situations if at all possible. (I'm not a police officer, so it's easier for me.) But it also underscores that when dealing with a sociopath, when violence is the answer, it is the only answer. That crazy nut could not be reasoned with.

Anonymous said...

I'm a police officer, and I saw the second video in a training class several years ago. We had a longer video, including interviews with coworkers of the fallen officer and also background on the man who shot him. Here's the additional info as best as I can remember it (It's been at least 7 years, so I apologize if I've got it wrong)

The officer was an expert marksman, one of the best on his department. If I remember correctly, he routinely shot perfect scores in training and qualifications.

The man who shot him was a Vietnam vet, and had actual combat experience. As FerFAL said, it shows. He was shot at least once in the early part of the engagement, and just keeps going. I suspect CS/tear gas wouldn't have stopped this guy.

That delay when he goes back to the truck is where he got his gun from behind the seat and started loading it. For what seems like an eternity the officer is screaming at him to "get back" and "drop the gun," while the whole time he's loading a high-power rifle.

I think he was later arrested on his property. If memory serves, he had hidden himself in some brush, and laid there for several hours as police officers searched the area. I don't think they found him...he finally gave himself up because he was still losing blood and needed medical attention.

He was very candid in interrogations by the detectives, and told them that he knew he would win the gunfight after the way that the officer responded to his blatant challenges to the officer's authority.

Anonymous said...

Fire suppression is important, but in all videos the officers had plenty of time to reload. Yet, twice already, we've seen how a gut shot from a 9mm or 40SW failed to stop the threat. I'd rather have a high capacity 45 caliber gun like a Glock 21 (13+1) or Springfield XD (13+1) than 17+ 9mm rounds.

In this video what failed the officer was not the hardware, though. It was his lack of malice to realize he was being cased by the suspect. Right from the time when the suspect began doing his happy dance and horsing around , he was gauging the reaction of the officer. The officer should have drawn on him at that moment and at the first sign of non-compliance moved to neutralize him. Instead, his actions showed insecurity and unwillingness to even draw. The ex-nam vet picked up on this like a predator on the scent of blood.

God! It was awful to see and hear this video.

Gallo@gta forums

Pitt said...

I think that the what the video shows is that mindset, not equipment, is what truly saves you life in this kind of situation.

The first officer realized that he was in a fight to the death and he responded with gunfire.

The second officer didn't realize that he was fighting for his life until he had been shot.


Some folks are born warriors, some learn to be warriors and some are not. If you don't have a killer mindset (whether innate or learned) it doesn't matter whether you have a .22 or .50BMG, you are going to come in second place in a race where only the winner lives.

FerFAL said...

I thik it does matter Pitt. 1) Enough ammo to put down suppresive fire. Saved the life of the officer in the first video. 2) Handguns are all "poor" choices so to speak for self defense, but there's no point in argueing, a 9mm wil always be more efficient than a 22LR, and there's a lot of videos showings bad guys going down that wouldn't have done so if shot with somethign smaller.

FerFAL

gaga said...

The idea of a .22 as a defensive round is, as you have made clear, ridiculous. Hunting with a 7x57, even with a small (15kg) target, doesn't result in an instant kill or anything like it. A wild animal can survive a high velocity hit for quite some time, a determined killer more so.

Don Williams said...

Why did the cop get out of the car in the second video? What was he protecting -- the trees?

If he stayed in the car, he could have backed up in reverse when the suspect started toward him. If the suspect pulled out the rifle, the cop could either back up rapidly in reverse with the engine block protecting him -- or else just run the son of a bitch over.

Use the bumper -- that's what it's there for.

If the suspect jumped in the truck and took off the cop could follow him and called for a roadblock/backup on the radio.

It's interesting that a similar case happened outside the USA's CIA building years ago -- a guy from Pakistan attacked several CIA officers queued up for a left turn into the CIA parking lot.

Later on, people realized that the targeted people could have just ran the fucker over instead of letting him shoot them like fish in a barrel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_CIA_shootings

A car at 30 mph has more momentum than any bullet.

Again, a single cop on his own is very vulnerable.

Don Williams said...

Re the first officer, I don't see the value of suppressive fire. The cop was putting his butt on the line by retreating across open ground without cover -- if the criminal had dived across his front seat and fired from the right hand door of the car (while the cop shot at the left side of the car), the cop would have been wide open.

Seems to me it would have been better for the cop to drop behind the rear of the car, circle around and counterattacked the criminal from the right side of the car. That would have negated any advantage the AK-47 had. Close the distance vice retreat.

Plus it seems to me that one can reload a 1911 between the 6th and 7th shot without losing much time -- and do so while spinning and dropping so the crook can't draw
a bead. Although the reload adds an additional complication.

On the other hand, I think 9mm make holes that are too small. Hollowpoint amno may not penetrate glass windshields. I think hollowpoint amno is an admission that your pistol is underpowered.
The first job a pistol round is to penetrate through any barriers, clothing and the body of the enemy.

The Marines Special Operations unit are carrying the 1911 --especially since the 9mm has repeatedly failed to stop terrorists in Iraq.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/meu_1911.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_3_54/ai_n24232193/

Don Williams said...

See also
http://www.kmike.com/IraqGrunt.htm

"The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but we all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight...

...The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse"

Don Williams said...

PS Did anyone notice in the second video that there was a second person in the pickup truck --and the cop was having to keep his attention divided between the attacker and that second person?

Dan said...

I appreciate you posting these videos FerFal and the comments. I want to get prepared and practice shooting free flow combat if I can safely, maybe in forest since I live in Colorado since I now know fixed targets at range are mostly a waste.

Dan said...

I also wanted to add since we have a 1 gun policy in house I will most likely sell me .357 in favor of 9mm for suppressive firepower and rapid shooting. The new Gen 4 Glocks are getting good reviews.